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cattown 16 days ago [-]
This article is kind of playful, but I think there’s a serious point here that’s not discussed enough. We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive.
I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should be seriously asking in our next all hands meetings if 10x’ing our productivity can get us some days off. Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
So far we’re all kind of being chumps about this, bragging on Linkedin about all of our new found AI productivity while accepting less job security and no increase in comp.
throwaway63467 16 days ago [-]
It’s been like that for a while, economic gains went to a small fraction of people, before software developers were among those that were on the winning side, now they’re on the losing side. Think about how much the US economy is growing right now and who really profits from that growth. My guess is that 90 % of the growth goes to 10 % of people, with AI maybe 99 % might go to the 1 %. Or who do you think will gain from the tokenization of development? You’re just supposed to be more productive and the gains the company achieves will just go to the owners as they are in a great position right now and developers are scared shitless to get fired, so no one is increasing salaries or time off, instead most companies hang the threat of layoffs over people’s head to keep them in line. And the funny thing is we developers did this to ourselves, by doing free open source work for the greater good, which now feeds AI models that are replacing many of us. But I guess most people didn’t care as they made good money while it lasted.
Tade0 16 days ago [-]
> And the funny thing is we developers did this to ourselves, by doing free open source work for the greater good, which now feeds AI models that are replacing many of us.
Open source is not to blame here. AI companies used the code, in some cases against the license, to train their models.
Nobody is actually getting replaced - it's just that layoffs are in vogue now. If there was productivity to gain here, it would be used to do more and capture more of the market.
therealpygon 16 days ago [-]
“Nobody is actually getting replaced” is an interesting take given currently available information on force reductions, stated cause, and AI implementation increases across sectors replacing workloads and causing fewer employees to accomplish the same goals, regardless of any opinions on whether that is positive, negative, problematic, or anything else to the future since the impact is now.
Could you point to some factual basis for that claim, or is this a feeling disguised as an opinion disguised as a factual statement?
Cool opinion pieces that build stories from cherry-picked data.
My sources? Easy.
Just try searching for news stories of companies directly stating AI is the reason for layoffs. I don’t need to do any statistical or mental gymnastics for my evidence of it happening when it is literally as easy as looking at the result and the stated causes.
You know companies lie and overstate things, right?
therealpygon 13 days ago [-]
Your first article seems to start with a premise that laying off workers, whose jobs magically no longer need doing, and hiring AI focused workers means AI didn’t replace anyone. Your second article really doesn’t seem to address the subject beyond mostly talking about “overhyped” versions of conversations. The third article uses the fact that people who are exposed to AI aren’t entirely unemployed (despite rising unemployment across sectors and decreasing pay) and as such is proof a job apocalypse is unlikely. You follow up with yet another article in a similar vein.
Are you missing the pattern here?
Which of these articles and which part specifically do you believe supports the statement “NO ONE” is losing their job due to AI? Zero. Not a single one?
Okay, if not that, are you trying to refute my statement that automation is increasing across sectors? Which one of your articles refutes this statement categorically? Is it that you’re refuting AI is used in or to implement automations? Are you refuting that people have lost jobs to automations? Are you refuting that an AI does not need to replace an ENTIRE job in order to cause someone to lose their job or for a job to be replaced with a lesser paying job?
I’m not clear on how you think what you have provided is actually contextually relevant to the words I actually wrote, much less how I must have a “problem” because of it.
bdangubic 13 days ago [-]
if you believe what companies are telling you (publicly traded companies especially which have to say this), I got some Enron stock options to sell to you :)
GoodJokes 16 days ago [-]
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jfil 15 days ago [-]
Well, none of the AI-generated code now seeping into those companies' codebase is copyrightable. So we're about to see a lot more free-use code hit the scene, when the chickens come home to roost. (Not the same as open source, but still a shakeup of the current status)
pjmlp 15 days ago [-]
They certainly are, CMS deployment projects are no longer relying on humans for translation and asset creation, at least not in the same amount.
jgilias 16 days ago [-]
We’re going to be fine. I see daily what non-engineers that build stuff with AI come up with.
Peaches4Rent 16 days ago [-]
Not the point.
If you don't get paid more for being more productive, someone else is getting richer. That means they buy the houses in your neighborhood, which means you can't buy it because they outbid you
yifanl 16 days ago [-]
You need to realize that people generally don't care about the quality of software. Crowdstrike shut down every airport in the world and is still in business today.
abletonlive 16 days ago [-]
> before software developers were among those that were on the winning side, now they’re on the losing side.
are you sure about that? i'm a software engineer and i feel like i'm on the wining side now, even more than before. I'm considering quitting my 500K a year job to go compete against the employers. they seem like dinosaurs to me.
forcedtolinux 16 days ago [-]
you personally are winning, but 500k comp is an outlier and not the norm, especially now
abletonlive 15 days ago [-]
You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying the 500K comp is not worth it and i want to quit to go compete against all the employers that are offering such comp. I am positioning myself to do it this year.
Software engineers have more leverage than ever.
Gooblebrai 15 days ago [-]
Software engineers with a network and sales skills
goatlover 15 days ago [-]
Even if so, should you want that to be how society is organized going forward? Because I think the evidence is societies are worse off when there is too much economic disparity, even if you personally benefit. And the greater the disparity, the more likely for there to be serious unrest in the future.
throwaway63467 16 days ago [-]
Well congrats man you might belong to the 1 % then
theptip 16 days ago [-]
I think it’s pretty naive to ask your employer for a day off. As experienced by companies, the market is more competitive than ever. Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch. It’s a Prisoner’s Dilemma.
The only way to get this outcome is to coordinate at a level higher than individual market participants.
In other words, get your government to implement UBI - tax all companies (or if AI really takes off, just compute) and redistribute to the people.
EliRivers 16 days ago [-]
Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch.
Is this true? There are a lot of low-productivity and zombie companies trudging through year after year.
jackp96 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, I see language like this a lot, but we don't live in an idealized microeconomic market with perfect information flow and competition levels.
Some companies are in highly competitive spaces while others have found a quiet, profitable niche.
And companies do have to compete for talent. If you want A-level players on your team, you're going to have to pay them more and/or provide benefits that surpass the competition.
theptip 15 days ago [-]
There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of talented engineers that just got laid off from BigTech. Meanwhile it’s never been easier to found your own company, and if you label it as “AI for X” it’s easy to raise too.
From what I see in the market, it looks obviously true.
I’m sure there are lots of zombies too, they will die quickly IMO. Bad time to be a zombie, possibly the worst time ever.
Timwi 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, they're all taking a gamble and hoping that they, not their peers, will be the lucky ones with the breakthrough.
godelski 15 days ago [-]
> Whoever slows down will get eaten by some hungry upstart that is willing to work 996 to eat the incumbent’s lunch.
I hear this a lot but it seems another old saying is still true today: why is there always time to do it twice but never enough time to do it right?.
If you were right then there wouldn't be so much busy work, especially at big companies. They would have become more efficient, not less.
mastazi 16 days ago [-]
> I think it’s pretty naive to ask your employer for a day off.
Someone said the same before 1938, probably [1]
I think it's possible that AI will bring as much of a shift to our lives as the industrial revolution did, so it might be necessary to make some adjustments, just like we did back then.
yep. The Progressive Era (with it's 5 day work week women's suffrage ) came after, and was a backlash to The Gilded Age. Now we're in Gilded Age II (Gilded Age on Steroids). Hopefully we'll see history repeat itself and we get Progressive Era II. But keep in mind that the Progressive Era only lasted about 20 years, if that long.
soco 16 days ago [-]
By the amount of money thrown out the AI window nowadays, a day off, or hiring a few more folks to cover for those days off and more, seems like the much cheaper option. But that's only my naive impression right?
"the market" is literally the arena of competition, it's not a surprise it's more competitive than ever
naveen99 16 days ago [-]
The world is decentralized. People and produce can cross borders. People don’t vote for sending ubi to outside borders.
lazide 16 days ago [-]
lol, this government is going to just throw anyone trying into the meat grinder.
The only way to do this is to bypass the authorities.
Griffinsauce 16 days ago [-]
Or change them.
ixtli 16 days ago [-]
Few willing to discuss this!
ixtli 16 days ago [-]
UBI without many other anti-capitalist reforms is just a subsidy paid directly to your landlord.
Gareth321 16 days ago [-]
We don't want anti-capitalist reforms. Perhaps reforms like those we use in Denmark would make sense? We're ranked higher than the U.S. in ease of business. We love capitalism here. But we also have high taxes, universal healthcare, and great social safety nets. It allows us to lean into the great parts of capitalism while also protecting those for whom capitalism isn't working so well. It's a great compromise without having to go full starvation and gulags, which would be worse than what we have now.
godelski 15 days ago [-]
> we also have high taxes
In plenty of places in the US we have high taxes and none of those things. Since it's HN I'll mention San Jose has some of the hardest water I've seen in any city and I've seen glass on the street for 6 mo before being cleaned up. I can't figure out where the taxes are actually going. Other states I've lived in I've even paid less and gotten way more.
I don't think people mind paying taxes, but it's when your taxes don't clearly benefit you that people get upset.
Honestly it seems to me like one party just wants to shift all costs to the poor (rather than the government) and the other wants to be the king of Nottingham. It's no surprise our citizens are feeling defeated. The choices appear to constantly be the lesser of two (geriatric) evils. Not choices between reasonable leaders, but with different beliefs
Gareth321 15 days ago [-]
It really does seem like the U.S. gets the worst of both worlds: high taxes (well, not quite as high as Europe), and poor social services. Even worse: despite all this tax revenue and poor social services, the nation is borrowing trillions more every year. Where is it all going?? I suspect there is a lot of fraud baked into the structure of the system, and this makes the governance layer very resistant to change. I've seen many attempts to move to proportional representation over the decades and both major parties rise up to quash such attempts with fury.
I hope you guys find a better way forward. I have affinity for your people and culture and I think most of you have big hearts and mean well.
godelski 15 days ago [-]
Don't forget that your governments can help too. The US isn't the only country with Epstein files to be released.
topaz0 16 days ago [-]
I don't know what starvation and gulags have to do with anti-capitalist reform. In this country (the USA), capitalism is what produces gulags and starvation.
Gareth321 15 days ago [-]
On the contrary. The U.S. has so much food that 72% of Americans are fat. There is simply too much tasty food available. This happened in a very short space of time, historically speaking, thanks to capitalism. As for gulags, one would need to use a very cynical definition to believe that. Especially when we have real gulags around the world today.
I imply that the alternative to capitalism is starvation an gulags because that is roughly what happened the last 37 or so times humanity tried something else. That's just from the last century. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's infinitely better than everything else.
topaz0 14 days ago [-]
My man, you suffer from capitalist realism. I don't think I can help you.
wallst07 16 days ago [-]
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Griffinsauce 16 days ago [-]
Where do you suggest we start? You can't nuke everything at once.
colordrops 16 days ago [-]
Uh, we might have to depending on how quickly AI and robots become effective at doing most jobs.
flohofwoe 16 days ago [-]
Tbh, with the productivity gains of the last 150 years, we should already be able to easily afford another weekday off for a long time. Instead most people sit around doing bullshit jobs to kill time until the weekend.
colordrops 16 days ago [-]
There's a fundamental difference with AI though. Even though we could live easily, greed drives the class with power to continue to force more and more productivity from workers, which is the elite's only source of labor. With AI, the workers won't been the most cost effective or even necessary. Very different situation.
And you must be a high paid tech worker in a bubble if you think most people are just trying to "kill time". At least in the US the majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck.
xnx 16 days ago [-]
> But we should be seriously asking in our next all hands meetings if 10x’ing our productivity can get us some days off.
Pretty sure if you ask this that they'll give you all your days off.
Cthulhu_ 16 days ago [-]
Depends on whether you or your ancestors demanded some worker protection rights so they can't just fire you.
bbor 16 days ago [-]
Standing up for yourself and your peers is a virtue, not a weakness. Yes, it’s easy to crack down on individual dissent — but only if you stay quiet.
keybored 16 days ago [-]
This is HN, where labor unions are considered nice-in-theory-evil-in-practice while we with eyes with open resign ourselves to doing nothing.
Your livelihood has a price (duh, your wage). But making cynical remarks about how stupid it is to want things to improve? Priceless.
pjmlp 15 days ago [-]
Only from the US HNers for the most part, I enjoy the benefits unions have brought to my work life.
Kind of ironic, given the way unions came to be in US during the 1930's.
Melatonic 16 days ago [-]
Union!
diordiderot 16 days ago [-]
You know who will shut up and do as their told, the H1B replacing you this fall
kakacik 16 days ago [-]
Nothing like self-imposed anticipatory pressure ruining one's life. Maybe you are right, maybe not, nobody knows. What everybody knows is that life is happening now and its extremely short even in best scenario, yet few act accordingly.
Cakez0r 16 days ago [-]
The reality is that most people are paid for their time, not for their output. I think most contracts for salaried employees are along the lines of "work n hours a week". If you want to get paid for output, you can't be a salaried employee.
nlawalker 16 days ago [-]
Salaried employees aren't paid for their time, they're paid for a combination of their output and their availability. Availability used to be strongly coupled with time but technology has introduced some flexibility there.
Traubenfuchs 16 days ago [-]
Correction: Their PERCEIVED output, not their output. Output can usually not be objectively measured in IT.
Storypoints? Overestimate wildly. Stories done? Split stories like atoms! Impact of work done? Present your button color change stories as company saving divine intervention!
spunker540 16 days ago [-]
I think it depends. Plenty of salaried workers are truly only on the clock when on-site from 9-5
mastazi 16 days ago [-]
Can you give some examples of jobs that are usually done by salaried employees and are paid by output? All the examples I can think of, are usually done by independent contractors.
nlawalker 16 days ago [-]
Not by output, for output - as in, not paid per unit of output, but paid for achieving a sufficient level of it, the definition of which frequently changes. That's baked into the definition of salaried.
gravypod 16 days ago [-]
Anything commissions based might fit the bill?
Maxatar 16 days ago [-]
Commission is not salary.
toofy 16 days ago [-]
i think we could say with a high level of certainty that someone with a subpar output will typically be punished in some way.
it feels very disingenuous to pretend there aren’t expectations of a certain level of output.
mastazi 15 days ago [-]
For sure, but incentives are different when your pay is perfectly proportional to output rather than having a salary.
cm11 16 days ago [-]
I don't think this is the reality. It is part of it, but people get paid different salaries, why? Some are more productive than others. Aside from leadership's (and society's) biased ability to determine value, these people theoretically get more because they contribute more.
tstrimple 16 days ago [-]
This is a naive view. Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with. If they think they can hire someone “equivalent” according to HR for less money they will often do so. Actual contribution means nothing unless you’re willing to walk away. I’ve literally seen an intern with less than one year of experience when hired into a company where a senior architect who has been at the same firm for 16 years made over $40k less than them. The former intern was great. I had no real complaints. And he was more ambitious than the senior architect. But he stayed with the company two more years before jumping ship for another significant pay raise while the senior architect is still there making about the same amount as he did five years ago. It doesn’t matter how much value the senior architect delivers if he doesn’t demand his increase in pay.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> Companies will literally pay you as little as they can get away with.
Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with.
Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil. This is literally just how a market works.
A lot of people forget that the job market is a market. Or they wish it wasn't a market and they could block out competition for themselves so companies had to pay them more (at the expense of those excluded)
Timon3 16 days ago [-]
This might be fair if the rules of the market were static, but companies are actively using their power and influence to affect the market rules so they can get away with paying workers less and less - that's not to mention collusion and corruption.
Just because this has been normalized doesn't mean it's not evil. If a healthcare company introduces processes that deny people life-saving interventions just to funnel more money to their shareholders, that company and its leadership are thoroughly evil.
I'd also like to add that I often pay more for things than I could get away with. I try to prefer locally owned businesses when possible, and if they have fair prices and give me good advice I often pay a bit extra (essentially a "tip" for the business) to support them.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> but companies are actively using their power and influence to affect the market rules so they can get away with paying workers less and less - that's not to mention collusion and corruption.
What do you mean? Labor is a market. Companies can’t force anyone to work for them. If the pay gets too low, people leave for other companies or jobs.
Timon3 16 days ago [-]
Just like all markets, the labor market isn't an immutable natural structure. It is actively shaped by the laws and regulations of the market's respective physical location. There are too many specific examples to count, but a few of the most obvious ones are IMO: Child labor, minimum wage, max. working hours and/or overtime, worker safety & health, ...
> Companies can’t force anyone to work for them. If the pay gets too low, people leave for other companies or jobs.
In an ideal world, sure! But in the real world, there are many sources of friction that - when added together - keep people tied to a job, even if they feel the pay is too low.
goatlover 15 days ago [-]
Markets are social constructs, not something given in nature. As such, there are rules enforced by laws to how the markets operate. Powerful money interests can shape those rules by influencing politicians to pass laws in their favor.
yunwal 15 days ago [-]
Ah yes, the free labor market, where for some reason we’ve given one side a monopoly on whether you can see a doctor without going bankrupt.
tstrimple 16 days ago [-]
> Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with.
Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. Maybe you cheap out on all of your purchases, but it says nothing about “everyone”. The fact that you claim “everyone” has as few moral qualms as you is telling. But not in a way that reflects everyone. Just short sighted selfish assholes.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times.
You missed the part about equal service. Please read my whole comment, not just snap responses to the first line.
Obviously nobody is hiring the person who has the lowest salary demands and ignoring their qualifications.
Timwi 15 days ago [-]
> Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil.
You literally just described an evil behavior. It's obviously not evil when you're shopping for gadgets, but if you think that's morally comparable to the livelihoods of human beings, I'm sorry to inform you that you're a psychopath.
> This is literally just how a market works. A lot of people forget that the job market is a market.
You say that like you think it's a law of physics. Markets don't exist in nature. Markets are a conscious, deliberate creation by humans.
> Or they wish it wasn't a market
Correct! We've unambiguously determined that applying market logic to people's livelihoods is inhumane and immoral. There shouldn't be a market for being allowed to live. It should just be guaranteed to everybody.
komali2 16 days ago [-]
In my experience, productivity effects on salary is a rounding error. There are only two significant contributing factors for salary: 1. Your home address and 2. Your visa status
Productivity might get you a 5k raise more over your colleague on a 160k salary. Meanwhile the same engineer in Taiwan is more productive than you and getting paid 40k while working for the same company on the same product, and putting in more hours to boot.
tstrimple 16 days ago [-]
Or the engineer could be working for a certain company in South Korea and get a bonus multiple times their annual salary because of their union contracts tied to profitability.
NooneAtAll3 16 days ago [-]
while productivity is correlated with salary, generally the ability to ask for a raise, to defend your pay and office politics navigation would be more impactful on average
cm11 14 days ago [-]
I feel a bit like some have misconstrued my comment. I reread and can see how it could be read as quality of work being ALL that matters. Indeed, salaries capture many things and many bullshit ones. I don't exactly think what I wrote precludes that racism, sexism, nepotism, or cozying up to your boss factor more than they should, but I can see it. If I had another shot, maybe I'd reframe the provocation as "by and large Senior Xs make more than Junior Xs within the same company within the same geo, why?" Perhaps the existence of senior/junior titling at all is based on some sense of output/pay correlation.
raincole 16 days ago [-]
They are paid for what they collectively output. The only reason that people seem to be paid by their time is that it's hard to measure each one's output individually and granularly.
jandrese 16 days ago [-]
That's not really true. Pay raises have lagged behind productivity gains for decades now and the gap is only growing wider.
9rx 16 days ago [-]
Pay raises have kept pace with human productivity gains.
Robots have pushed productivity well beyond the human capacity. But robots are not willing to work for free either, so...
goatlover 15 days ago [-]
Humans use robots and computing to be more productive.
9rx 15 days ago [-]
Exactly. Hence why productivity has increased while wages haven't. Wages have increased alongside the productivity increases of those wages, of course, but wages are decidedly for human labor, by very definition, not robot (computing, automation, whatever you want to call it) labor. If you want to capture the value of robots you need to use your human capacity to deploy robots, not to sell your labor.
jandrese 15 days ago [-]
That sounds like a roundabout way of saying that the capital owners have captured the gains from productivity without increasing the compensation to the workers.
But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines. They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated. They're being asked to get more work done by being higher skilled, but the bosses are collecting all of the additional revenue generated.
9rx 15 days ago [-]
> That sounds like a roundabout way of saying that the capital owners have captured the gains from productivity without increasing the compensation to the workers.
What do you mean in a roundabout way? It says that quite explicitly.
> But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines.
No they didn't. What is a capital owner going to do if the labor didn't become more skilled? Just shut everything down and take the ball home? Ha ha. No. Not a chance in hell. This is the silliest thing I've read all day.
> They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated.
One wonders why. When they said "go to college to make more money" they were clearly talking about using college research labs to develop capital. Exactly so that you become the one deploying robots, not selling your labor. That is where the "more money" comes from. How people — traditionally smart people, even — got it into their head that meant go to college to get a low paying job, the same job they would have gotten anyway, boggles the mind. I suppose smarts don't transcend into every subject.
kbar13 16 days ago [-]
is this not backwards? salaried employee means you get paid the same amount no matter how many hours you work.
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
There is a lot of regulatory stuff, particularly around benefits, that push people towards nominally 40hr salaried contracts even if they don't need all 40 of those.
"Salaried" vs hourly is increasingly a scam anyway, but all that benefits stuff is something that would have to evolve. And it could, if people find the political will.
pseudalopex 16 days ago [-]
What regulations prevent an employer to give benefits to employees before 40 hours? And how do some employers give benefits before 40 hours despite them?
hexis 16 days ago [-]
typically there is a floor, at least de facto.
Cakez0r 16 days ago [-]
The contracts I've seen have an explicit floor, not a de facto one. I.E. The contract says the minimum number of hours you need to work. Some countries also have overtime laws which create a ceiling.
Either way it doesn't change that being paid for your output is the realm of entrepreneurship and submitting bids for project work.
dcrazy 16 days ago [-]
Employment contracts are virtually nonexistent here in the U.S. While the norm is “40 hours”, actual requirements vary by employer, may or may not be communicated in writing, and can change at the employer’s whim. If you make under $107,432 per year (which is around starting salary for fresh graduates at FAANG), you are entitled to overtime pay (minimum 1.5x) for hours worked beyond 40 in a week.
gbear605 16 days ago [-]
At least for my software job in the US, and other salaried jobs I’ve seen, there are explicitly no hours listed, and it’s supposedly based only on your output. In practice though, if your butt isn’t in the seat 40 hours a week or so, and usually more, the boss will be mad.
aetch 16 days ago [-]
I think it’s the other way around. Hourly wages are paid directly for time at work
zdragnar 16 days ago [-]
At least in the US, there are regulations around what constitutes "full time" employment, and many benefits (such as insurance) are tied into being offered only for full time employees, or at different tiers between part and full time.
As such, you are still expected to work a minimum amount of time. That's what you're signing up for. Fixed deliverable contracts- completing certain objectives- tend to either specify those things as minimum performance expectations, or are for contractors rather than employees.
16 days ago [-]
4ndrewl 16 days ago [-]
The reality is huge swathes of the middle of large organisations are paid to take the blame for the layer above them. AI wont solve that.
spike021 16 days ago [-]
At my most recent role we were definitely being judged by output metrics (both jira tickets completed and github prs merged). They showed us the jellyfish tool they used to check those metrics. Well, some of it. Regular ICs themselves didn't have that access.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
When you work for a startup, or a zero-to-one project, it's hard to say you're even paid for your output. You're paid for probabilistic/expected future value output.
RevEng 16 days ago [-]
Every meeting, every memo, and every prototype is output in terms of the employees doing that work. Whether it's directly saleable is irrelevant. The investors base the value of their investment on the expected future value of the company, but the people being to do the work are being paid for the work they are doing regardless of what the future value of the company becomes. That is if they are paid a salary. If they are given shares, then that compensation is entirely dependent on future value.
bigmadshoe 16 days ago [-]
Yes but you are missing the point: our time can now make the company way more money. Can’t we demand a piece of this?
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> Can’t we demand a piece of this?
You can demand whatever you want. You could demand a million dollar salary if you wanted.
The challenge is that there are a lot of very qualified devs who would do it for less.
Labor is a market. Supply and demand determines your wages.
There are always hand-wavey arguments about unionization fixing this, but when other developers are hungry for those jobs and willing to go around the union to work them for pay then that doesn’t really work at scale.
There are several unionized software development groups in the US. They don’t have a good track record of getting significantly higher pay or even getting their demands met from their limited strikes.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
I was in the musician's union for 12 years before I got into tech. There were some silly rules, like someone couldn't be both a musician and and orchestrator on the same show, because it's "doing 2 jobs". It's like saying you can't be full stack. You couldn't fire people who were bad at their jobs and stopped putting in any effort. There was a profit sharing agreement that the union rejected, because it would come at the expense of higher base salaries, and then they wondered why there were only big producers that first developed the show out of town.
Some rules I actually liked. Rehearsals started and ended _exactly_ on time to avoid overtime (showing up late was the only reason you could be fired, which was a useful compromise). But generally, the union was the yin to the producers yang, and an adversarial position as worker advocate was where they wanted to be, they didn't want more ownership.
If someone gave me the chance to join something more like a worker-owned coop, where the workers on the business and vote on how it works, I would actually be down. There's a grocery store down my street like this and it's a great place. I don't know how this would actually work in tech. If there's no startup capital, no one will have a salary or benefits for years until there's a profit (if at all). And capital comes in exchange for ownership of the future upside.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> If there's no startup capital, no one will have a salary or benefits for years until there's a profit (if at all). And capital comes in exchange for ownership of the future upside.
The developer co-op projects I've seen have targeted consulting for this reason. The idea is that developers get together and start doing projects that can bill clients immediately, and then they'll pool the money back into developing their own something later.
In practice there's no real difference between a group of people consulting together and a co-op of consultants when everyone is just billing hourly at the start. Nobody really wants to spread their earnings around the co-op because you can see the relationship between hours worked, hours billed, and dollars coming in so clearly.
> and then they wondered why there were only big producers that first developed the show out of town.
Most unions derive a lot of their negotiating power from location-based constraints. You can gather enough musicians in one place to form a union because there are a limited number of musicians within driving distance of the location. Musicians can't do their performance over zoom and the job can't be outsourced to another country.
Software jobs have no restrictions like this. Every time there are calls for unionizing software devs, nobody wants to answer the hard questions like what incentives multi-national corporations will have to cater to the unionized employees in a country like the US where we're already paid more than our international counterparts. It's just assumed that the union will form, then companies will have no choice but to accept their demands.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
> Musicians can't do their performance over zoom and the job can't be outsourced to another country.
Recording is increasingly outsourced, unfortunately. There are great orchestras in Eastern Europe.
komali2 16 days ago [-]
> If someone gave me the chance to join something more like a worker-owned coop, where the workers on the business and vote on how it works
I run a co-op, and the most surprising thing I've learned is that it seems the only reason other people don't set up their businesses as co-ops is, frankly, greed.
In this startup ecosystem, why would you do a co-op when you could instead chase that multi million dollar exit that profits you? If we have any kind of event like that the earnings would be distributed basically equally among around 30 people. 20 mill payout suddenly becomes... Less...
Anyway though apparently statistics are on my side. Apparently co-ops are more sustainable and live for longer than traditional corporations. It seems to me that people are much happier here than at traditional corporations.
Clients are happy, engineers are happy and productive, I'm happy because I don't have the entire responsibility of the business on my shoulders - engineers are constantly contributing to the improvement of internal systems for example, because why wouldn't they? That saves them money too!
Downsides are increased ownership come with increased responsibility. Can't just clock in here, people need to manage the client relationship, issue invoices, participate in the accounting, and if they want more work when their gig is closing out, either try to sell the client on more work or help us find another one. Until we can find an alternative revenue stream to selling our labor to clients, we're all beholden to keeping the BD wheel turning in order to get paid. Upside is that we're keeping 85% of the margin for ourselves rather than at toptal where you keep, idk, 30%? And that 15% is still our money anyway it just gets used for overall co-op stuff, which members get to decide on.
Also I don't know if this kind of business lends itself to the silicon valley mythos of the huge work week for a few years followed by functional retirement. Instead it seems we'll all need to keep working for the foreseeable future, but at our own reasonable pace, fully remote, our own hours, at very high compensation but not "fuck you money" compensation. Well except for our people in Ethiopia and Taiwan, for the local market rates, their compensation is getting way up into that territory.
That said, I don't know about our ability to survive a full on capitalist attack in the form of lawfare or getting priced out or closed out of deals. Priced out in a labor market would be difficult since the only way to beat our labor margins is to hire directly, but we could be lawfared to death pretty easily considering our ARR might be 1 mil this year if we're lucky.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
Maybe i’m a cynical capitalist, but I expect everyone to be operating in their own self interest. There are few true saints. Startups are high risk high reward. 9/10 fail. If a VC gets less upside when it works, the successes wouldn’t pay for the failures.
Co-op for consulting actually seems like it could work.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> Co-op for consulting actually seems like it could work.
I made a comment about exactly this in the thread. This is where a lot of co-op ideas go, but they run into friction when they get to the part about sharing the money around. Consulting is one place where developers can see a direct relationship between their hours worked, hours billed, dollars coming into the business, and dollars going into their paycheck. There are some ideas like putting shared money into a group fund to cover vacations and similar expenses, but generally a consulting group is money-in money-out. Nobody really wants to join a co-op and see the hours they bill go to pay someone who works fewer hours, so the money relationship gets even more tightly coupled than at a traditional salaried company.
komali2 16 days ago [-]
> Maybe i’m a cynical capitalist, but I expect everyone to be operating in their own self interest.
Down to explore this with me?
I often wonder if this is self fulfilling. I'm not saying you're selfish, I mean, has capitalism trained people that all people are inherently selfish, and then, within this system where selfishness is rewarded, incentivized further selfishness and continued to sell this myth?
How much maintenance does capitalism take? If human nature is inherently selfish, and capitalism is a force of nature, a ground truth, the answer should basically be no maintenance, right? Is that reality though? It seems to me it takes a lot of maintenance, the myths of capitalism. Look at the incredible amount of resources the USA dedicated to fighting Communism, both explicitly (crossing swords with the Soviet Union) and in the background (overthrowing socialist leaders in south America, meddling in southeast Asia).
Is the key difference for me that led to me making a co-op (rather than a traditional geographic arbitrage agency) that I don't buy into the capitalist notion that humans are inherently selfish? Maybe I just happened to have the experiences that indicated to me that this isn't true, that humans are inherently mostly selfless and social, which led to me researching this and learning that history supports this notion of humans as social-first organisms.
When I tell people about my business, a lot of questions I get confuse me: "You don't require timesheets tracking granular work? How do you know people are actually accurately recording the hours and not 'stealing time?'" the answers are always basically, "because I trust my co-op members," and "I really don't care if people are 'stealing' from me." Capitalism teaches us to always "get ours," but as soon as you let go of that, if people trust me as a genuine actor, they seem to abandon these unnatural principles and work with me honestly, as humans naturally want to.
For your VC example, I mean, nobody will invest in us. Maybe that's the double edged sword - you stop playing within the rules of the game, people won't throw the ball your way anymore. There's no massive value to extract here. That probably limits our ability to rapidly develop some products to generate revenue outside of selling engineering hours. Maybe that's ok though, the business might grow more slowly but sustainably? And maybe that cements our reputation as "no really, actually a co-op that genuinely doesn't put profit first?" I don't know. We'll find out.
But for you, what do you think would happen if you started putting yourself forward as a non-participant, non-self-interested? The prisoner's dilemma equivalent of saying "I will always cooperate no matter what you choose," and then following through on that? Is there a sort of aversion to that knowing that someone might exploit this aspect of you at some point, where you might end up in a situation where your personal profit wasn't maximized?
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
I see this as a bunch of unsolved game theory problems. USA vs Soviet Union I just see as a battle of competing empires. There have been competing empires for all of history, we haven’t figure out how not to do that yet.
At the smaller scale, I’ve lived in coliving housing most of my adult life. Mostly positive, but problems that make people retreat away from cooperation. Once a week potluck but otherwise people cook their own food. Chronic mess/clutter/dishes/laundry headaches.
goatlover 15 days ago [-]
But capitalism (and communism) are relatively recent economic developments. Most of human history was some form of hunter-gathering where cooperation inside the group was necessary for survival, with varying levels of cooperation and competition outside.
Should note that both the West & East included a lot of economic cooperation among countries within those competing Cold War economic models, even if there was coercion involved (and not just from the Soviets).
jeffreygoesto 16 days ago [-]
My personal mental model is that there is a quite bimodal distribution of people in the world. Many seem to see it as a zero-sum game, some others not. As father of a disabled child I come into contact a lot with the latter and can confidently say that there is a LOT to gain once you stop starting to stare at money only. Once your needs are basically covered, giving can give you so much.
throw0101a 16 days ago [-]
> Can’t we demand a piece of this?
If your company is publicly traded, you can buy its stock.
sieabahlpark 16 days ago [-]
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paulhebert 16 days ago [-]
Right, the AI companies don’t even try to pretend it’s good for the average person.
The message could be “we’ll all do more by working less.” Instead it’s, “some people will lose their jobs while everyone else works the same amount or more”
arkh 16 days ago [-]
What's crazy is the glee when saying that. It's like "fuck those uppity low class people who managed to move up socially thanks to an in-demand job requiring some skill". Now we're back to only who you know, skills are for the AI.
Nasrudith 16 days ago [-]
To play devil's advocate: Why exactly would you expect to get paid more just because there was a big investment in more expensive tools? You're not working any harder, the machine is. Getting paid more is always nice of course.
Any pay rises have been more of a side effect in the past of complexity and therefore needing more skilled labor to say operate a bulldozer or backhoe than it does for any individual with a shovel. Productivity may boost the economic ceiling of 'how much they can pay before they literally start losing money' but more assembly lines didn't mean big pay raises. A backhoe didn't mean that ditch diggers suddenly got paid 50 to 100 times what they were previously from other's expenditures because they could dig that much more. And that is before the back-and-forth of induced demand and supply vs demand causing the price of the labor to drop with more efficiency.
AI's whole thing is to provide for easier operation and trying to deskill the operations. (Key word: trying, currently knowing what the hell you are doing is essential for filtering good outputs from bad).
account42 16 days ago [-]
We expect that because the company is only allowed to exist at the will of society at large.
ElevenLathe 16 days ago [-]
A social system that looks at a technology like LLMs and decides to use it to increase "output" in some abstract way while reducing the median standard of living is a system that will have a hard time maintaining popular (non-elite) legitimacy. That doesn't mean it will evaporate over night -- plenty of ghastly social systems have survived centuries with very little non-elite legitimacy.
It remains to be seen if LLMs will be used in this way, but the messaging so far (including your post, the one I'm replying to) suggests that the elites' inclination is exactly that: more profit, more control, more power now for elites, temporary (possibly years, maybe as long a generation or three) but real suffering for many of the rest, and a steady state at the end of the transition where they are still in charge, much richer, and maybe also everyone else is better off (if they can't capture the gains completely for themselves).
ikjasdlk2234 16 days ago [-]
I think the feeling is if we want to even keep our current footing in the market we have to increase productivity by 10x because everyone else is as well.
And if everyone else is, the productivity floor is raised but every other competitor has done the same so we don't have 10x the economic output, maybe only a marginal increase. If that is true, then there will be no days off because we have just reset the status quo.
edit: spelling
paulhebert 16 days ago [-]
Exactly. All the employers are still sharing the same sized market. There’s not more money going around for them to earn.
But they’re also paying hefty AI bills so there’s less money for salaries.
The AI companies just swoop in and take some of the money that was going to the working man
Isn't that just the same as "Red Queen's Race" or "tragedy of the commons"?
danaris 16 days ago [-]
This is why we need to be unionizing en masse.
There have been movements toward this in the US, but particularly in the tech sector, far too many people are still stuffed full of decades of anti-union propaganda (like the idea that the union is a "third party" rather than being the workers themselves, or that it would bring down their salary because they're such a special awesome 10x developer and 10x negotiator).
The executive class has taken roughly all the productivity increases since 1980 and slid them straight into their bulging pockets, at our expense. The only way we get any of that back, or prevent them from taking this new increase from us too, is to stand together against them.
armada651 16 days ago [-]
When your labor force makes gains in productivity you can choose to do one of two things:
1. Reduce working hours
2. Grow the economy
Guess which option was last picked in 1868 and never again despite massive gains in productivity?
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
Are we really so sure that reducing working hours can't, itself, lead to improved economic health? Such as by increasing distribution of income flows, and increasing time available for economic consumption?
One of the greatest tricks of the modern era in the US has been to convince everyone that making the slice of pie bigger for the richest people is necessary to grow the economy.
danaris 16 days ago [-]
In fact, we now know, with a fairly high degree of certainty, that it can.
There have been numerous experiments with four-day work weeks or six-hour work days that have almost uniformly shown increases in overall productivity.
Not just productivity per hour at work. Overall productivity.
The resistance to this is clearly not based in financial concerns, but rather in control, and classism.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> and increasing time available for economic consumption?
Where is that additional money going to come from? I think you’re missing some important factors in your analysis.
Timon3 16 days ago [-]
1. Not everyone is spending all their "spending money" every month, and 2. more free time allows people to get more value for their money (e.g. by comparing more alternative options).
16 days ago [-]
dannersy 16 days ago [-]
It is honestly offensive to me that this isn't plainly obvious to everyone. AI has never, ever, and never will be, about making life better for the average human. It has always been, and always will be, about wealth consolidation and control. Does anyone think it is coincidence that now local models are more useful the market has suddenly made it massively more expensive to buy your own hardware? Companies are just giving up making consumer hardware because they can can just focus on hyper-scalers. They want to control compute as well, there is no liberating aspect to any of this.
Businesses, especially tech ones, are not altruistic. The idea that tech companies are out to make anyone's life better is a joke and a sentiment that should have died decades ago. The evidence is of predatory business practices and leveraging the worst aspects of our brain chemistry to keep us hooked on apps that make us less happy, keep us stupid and less informed, and buying more.
Even more confusing are the people who are welcoming AI with open arms as just another skill to learn, _surely_ they'll be the ones who come out on top, right? It has all the stink of the countless Americans believing they too will become billionaires and everyone else are just suckers as they are all one healthcare problem away from bankruptcy.
We don't learn.
danaris 16 days ago [-]
> AI has never, ever, and never will be, about making life better for the average human. It has always been, and always will be, about wealth consolidation and control.
I think here it's useful to separate "AI" as sold and marketed today from "AI" as a CS discipline, a field of study, and a category of tools and techniques.
The field of Artificial Intelligence has always been, at least for the majority of people in it, about improving things for real people.
The LLMs that have garnered huge valuations and an outsized share of everyone's attention in recent years started as part of that field, and grew out of its research and technological advances.
But once companies started seeing how they could monetise it, that's when it started being about wealth consolidation and control.
dannersy 12 days ago [-]
I understand and agree with your point, but sadly we must concede that when you say the letters "AI", people now think of the chatbot interfaced, generative technology. It seems rather intentional to me that the definition has been muddied and is a part of the marketing of something that is clearly not artificial intelligence. I apologize for maybe contributing to that reality, but our words have to mean something to the majority of people, and when I say AI now, the general populous relates that to the new definition of snake oil salesmen.
munksbeer 16 days ago [-]
>AI has never, ever, and never will be, about making life better for the average human.
You don't know that. And this same line could be said about any technology that results in accruing of capital, but actually does end up making life better for the average human.
What if AI at AlphaFold finds a cure for Alzheimer's disease? What if it finds a way to actually perfect fusion?
You can't tell me we don't live better lives than people 100 years ago right now, and that is because of technology.
dannersy 16 days ago [-]
I am okay with Alzheimer's not being cured if it means we are not bending over backwards to welcome a billionaire overlord class. I don't think Altman or Amodei give a fuck about Alzheimer's unless a cure gives them a reason to obtain more investments. You could say that is the system working, but as a member of said system, it feels pretty shit.
thunky 16 days ago [-]
> I am okay with Alzheimer's not being cured if it means we are not bending over backwards to welcome a billionaire overlord class
What a cold perspective. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
dannersy 16 days ago [-]
It is cold for me to not want to concede everything to billionaires to cure a disease? You are short sighted, as I would argue the reverse is cold.
thunky 16 days ago [-]
> It is cold for me to not want to concede everything to billionaires to cure a disease?
"Concede everything" is way too vague to argue against, but I'd be more than happy if whoever is behind the tech to cure a horrible disease like Alzheimer's is made filthy rich for it.
munksbeer 16 days ago [-]
> It is cold for me to not want to concede everything to billionaires to cure a disease?
That's a fallacy. You're assuming we all agree that this is going to happen. I don't agree. And I think AI will drive a huge amount of innovation that is going to make almost everyones lives better.
childintime 15 days ago [-]
Billionaires? We're basically talking about the first 10 trillionaire, Elon Musk, and the inauguration of the supervillain category. He'll hold a majority stake in his soon to be Skynet empire SpaceXAI+Tesla. Which means he'll put lasers in space to control access, as he needs to prevent the Kessler syndrom, as that's the only way to take him down. So he'll want repressive governments. He'll give them the mark of the beast to solve their problem, those pesky humans need to behave better, and it'll be dandy like an iPhone was, progress! The other billionaires? He can darth vader them at will. We're seeing the coup first hand and we're blind to it. No government can wipe him out, as his empire stretches into the universe.
dannersy 15 days ago [-]
True. The techno optimists seem to think it is justified for a chance to cure a disease.
munksbeer 16 days ago [-]
These threads are so tiresome. Reddit doomerism has infested hn.
thewebguyd 16 days ago [-]
> Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
And when/if it doesn't, unionize. I know the HN crowd historically hasn't looked favorably on Unions, but times are changing. It's long past time for unions in tech. We've fared well individually for a long time, but that time is coming to an end.
Buttons840 16 days ago [-]
One possibility is once AI becomes profitable and wildly successful, and we all lose our jobs, we vote to nationalize the AI companies, and send some good vibes (but no money) to the VCs who paid for it, and remember that the AI was only built by breaking copyright law at an industrial scale and so it's fair to nationalize it.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
Good thing all of the AI companies in the world operate only inside one country. I'm sure all of the other technology companies, AI ventures, and investors will continue putting their headquarters in a country that did this and gave the investors $0.
Nothing bad would happen, of course.
Joeri 16 days ago [-]
Nationalization doesn’t work because every country’s citizens except those of USA and China still get nothing. Basic income doesn’t work because most countries lack leverage to tax the AI companies. International frameworks to do such things don’t work because Trump just marginalized all international bodies that might host such a framework.
If AI is really about to automate away a lot of labor, I have yet to hear even a hint of a plan to deal with the fallout of that which doesn’t involve consigning much of humanity to the dustbin of history.
ath3nd 16 days ago [-]
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radu_floricica 16 days ago [-]
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knappe 16 days ago [-]
Right. Those productive companies that totally didn't just steal the entirety of humanities production to build their product.
radu_floricica 16 days ago [-]
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niels_bom 16 days ago [-]
Nothing bad has ever happened from privatizing well running government orgs either.
colordrops 16 days ago [-]
That analogy only works if the gold being laid by the goose caused all other geese to eventually cease to exist or at least be sent into the countryside infertile while the golden goose continues to live in a walled castle surrounded by golden military robots.
apt-apt-apt-apt 16 days ago [-]
Same answer as for most hope-filled employee questions sadly:
You get to keep your job. You agreed to accept X pay for 40 hours, do it or we'll find someone else who will.
slg 16 days ago [-]
That's why it has to be collective. That's why OP mentioned saying it in an all hands. That's why there's always discussion of tech worker unions despite our high pay. Any one of us try to push too hard on this sort of thing on our own and they'll "just find someone else" who would happily take our place.
ipaddr 16 days ago [-]
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slg 16 days ago [-]
Classic American politics right there:
Person 1: "We need class solidarity against the billionaires."
Person 2: "No, it's the immigrants' fault."
OccamsMirror 16 days ago [-]
There's some truth to the fact that workers on H-1B visas are not going to rock the boat. A modern form of indentured servitude.
ipaddr 15 days ago [-]
Why would it be the immigrants fault? They are just following the rules setup by the billionaires. I wouldn't blame everyone that came to my party and had it shut down for overcrowding but I'll blame the groups that invited them and collected money at the door.
16 days ago [-]
petersellers 16 days ago [-]
So true. Pick your boogeyman (Muslims/Immigrants/Antifa/Trans/"Marxists"), pump the attack propaganda through all available media channels and hope no one mentions the billionaires.
It's been awhile since 9/11 and we've got pretty short memories, so we'll probably cycle back to Muslims soon.
ipaddr 15 days ago [-]
Who they are matters less than if the supply is larger than demand unless you are in politics and want to blame a group.
account42 16 days ago [-]
Immigrants are a tool of the billionaires.
bruhFaaahNo 16 days ago [-]
Except all the people who drilled such mandates into our heads are dying off. These things persist over time only so long as we keep discussing them.
We're really failing to meet the moment before us by merely repeating the propaganda of elders that glaze over on live TV trying to act authoritative and useful to humanity.
Exploitation of youth is no less ageist than telling gramps look in the mirror.
stego-tech 16 days ago [-]
If workers got time off relative to the productivity gains achieved of the past fifty years and considering the comparatively stagnant wages over that time period, we’d only be working 2 to 3 days a week, tops.
The author might be being playful, but an increasing amount of folks at or past their breaking points definitely aren’t.
BrenBarn 16 days ago [-]
> We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us?
More flour more water. More water more flour.
Cthulhu_ 16 days ago [-]
The only ones getting a paycheck off of this is those that work for the hardware manufacturers, unfortunately.
Mainly because in software development (at least for what I do), productivity does not translate into significant company gains. I work for an energy company, nothing is super revolutionary, and a new feature or capability takes a long time to translate into measurable revenue, if at all.
The energy crisis had a much bigger (positive) impact on the numbers than AI or anything I personally did. (although I have to add, they also did a major re-architecture of their back-end after the '22 energy crisis and did some smart buy-in, so as the other energy companies' websites struggled, ours churned along just fine and we got a lot of new customers/contracts)
Eridrus 16 days ago [-]
I think it's a fair question to ask ourselves.
But it's worth noting how leisure hours have been allocated after the invention of the 5 hour work week: we've reduced working hours at the end of life (longer retirements), start of life (longer education), and some amount of people simply do not work.
There hasn't been a reduction in hours during peak earning potential because many jobs are competitive, because firms are in competition with each other.
Maybe some companies will start doing 4 day work weeks because they find that productivity doesn't actually increase from 4 to 5 days and then start outcompeting other companies for talent. But unless 5 days is actually not more productive than 4 days, we're going to have the most competitive organizations continue to be 5 days a week.
omnimus 16 days ago [-]
It's strange to put it like “we invented 40hour workweek”. It was extremely hard fight won by cooperation of many levels of the working class. The business owners absolutely didn't want it.
This would have to happen again. But there is none of that worker unity so it's unlikely to happen. The productivity gains will go solely to the bussiness owners.
Eridrus 14 days ago [-]
While unions did fight for the 40 hour work week and crystalized that specific number, their actual causal impact (on hours worked, not law) is contested since hours were already falling well before unions were organizing for the 40 hour work week.
ipaddr 16 days ago [-]
You are not the 10x factor and can't use it to increase your wage. If you leave the next person is a 10x factor because of ai. Now if AI providers all increased prices they could get a raise.
moduspol 16 days ago [-]
Computers and the Internet ushered in huge productivity gains. Despite many people losing their jobs as a result, it's tough to argue society isn't better off.
I think that's the key difference with AI, though. It's not like I'm losing my job, but at least I have a robot at home that cleans the house and does my laundry. People are having their livelihoods threatened while their utility bills go up because of datacenters, and the only substantive impact in their personal lives is that now they have to deal with chatbots and low effort automated customer service agents even more.
I'm OK with accepting a job that pays 10x less if the efficiencies from AI mean we're all living in abundance and life is >10x cheaper. But it's unclear if/when we'll move beyond marginal business impact, aside from in software development, I suppose.
esikich 16 days ago [-]
I think it's impossible to argue we are better off. This comment is so detached from reality it's almost offensive. Education is unaffordable, health care is unaffordable, homes are unaffordable, the rich have gotten massively richer, the middle class has been gutted, suicides are up, birth rates are down... I could go on and on. It's gotten better for the 1% but the rest of us are being boiled like frogs. To the point where we've (you've) literally forgotten we used to be able to raise a family on a single income. But I guess we have video games and door dash, so sure, we're better off.
throwaway2037 16 days ago [-]
> birth rates are down
This is mostly due to improved economic outcomes for women. The more educated women become, the more money they make. As a result, they become choosier about selecting a husband and delay having children. All of this compounds to a lower birth rate. This pattern has been observed in all highly developed nations.
moduspol 16 days ago [-]
Society was improved as a result of computers and the Internet. That does not mean society is in all ways better now than 70 years ago.
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
Median income is vastly higher. Did you live before ~1990? Standard of living was a lot lower back then, it’s pretty apparent.
hunter-gatherer 16 days ago [-]
Maybe in some places??? I am an 80s kid, and was raised with what we'd call something like lower middle class. Neither parent has a college education, worked minimum wage, and owned a home and fed 4 kids. We didn't have as much stuff... But we sure were outside and playing a lot more back then.
jimbokun 16 days ago [-]
I lived two decades before 1990.
Life was better then than it is now. But the 1990s were arguably the high point.
CalRobert 16 days ago [-]
How was the standard of living lower?
Mostly what I can think of is access to medical treatments developed in the last few decades. Comforts like A/C are more widespread now (but they were less necessary when we were under 400 ppm CO2).
AuthAuth 16 days ago [-]
Only in America
Ancalagon 16 days ago [-]
Is society better off? Honest question, you used to be able to support a family of four with a single 9-5.
kylenessen 16 days ago [-]
My great grandfather supported a family of 7 making brooms. He didn’t own the broom factory. He was an employee, and was paid by the broom. My great grandmother stayed at home to raise 5 children. There was even enough to lend to the local grocery store, apparently. This was at the turn of the 20th century in Canada.
munksbeer 16 days ago [-]
He would have probably worked 12+ hours a day, his children could have died of a toenail infection, their teeth would be falling out early, they could have been deformed by various diseases, many children died young or at birth, etc, etc.
I would never choose to raise a family in that period.
chrz 15 days ago [-]
sure, but lower jobs there were getting you further than engineering jobs now
bryanlarsen 16 days ago [-]
And that support was a family of 4-6 in a 1200 sq ft house, eating out <6x a year, vacations were picnics at the local beach, one car that you did your own maintenance on, one tv, only one set of good clothes (your Sunday outfit), et cetera. Most places in the US can still support a family at that same level of expenditure on an average income.
jimbokun 16 days ago [-]
The difference is the social structures supporting that kind of life have disappeared.
CalRobert 16 days ago [-]
In many cases it's illegal or commercially unviable to build said 1200 sqft house.
It's kinda funny that this is considered small, though. 110-120 sqm is perfectly normal for a family of 4 where I live, and in many cases they do it with 1 or 0 cars. But I live somewhere that isn't horribly designed (the Netherlands)
sfink 16 days ago [-]
Outside of the city cores in the US, homes are built as castles. We have large refrigerators and freezers so that we can amortize our trips to the grocery store by maintaining our own inventory. In my family, we plan the menu a week ahead of time and shop for it in advance. Missing an ingredient means a minimum 1 hour round trip to the big box grocery store by car when it all adds up, which is enough to scuttle an evening's plans. There is 1 smaller store, but it's barely closer -- the main savings is less time walking across a giant parking lot -- and it's absolutely pointless; the only things they can afford to carry are sugary trash and stimulants and intoxication-related supplies. The big box stores use their scale to monopolize the lower profit margin "actual food" category.
When I briefly lived in Paris, we had a laughably small refrigerator. But it was about a 5 minute walk to a neighborhood grocery store, so we effectively used their fridge instead. Which also provided human contact in a way driving to and shopping at a big box store really cannot.
Some of this is just the difference between living in a city vs the suburbs. But not all: even in the US cities, my impression is that you'll have a large fridge and shop at the big stores, even if you take public transit to get there, because the small stores can't compete on staple items.
We're in a path-dependent hell where losing a parking space is felt as a mortal insult, while losing the need for a parking space feels pie-in-the-sky, an unobtainable fantasy. There's an entire synergistic system of dependence on scale and cars and "self-sufficiency" (that masks the infrastructure dependency that it requires).
</rant>
CalRobert 16 days ago [-]
Indeed, this is why I moved to the Netherlands. But the US has a severe sickness at its heart that puts life behind an increasingly difficult paywall.
esikich 16 days ago [-]
That exact same 1200 sq ft house is now 300k in the Midwest, if it's even for sale at all, and it's likely a rental for $2.5k/month.
bryanlarsen 16 days ago [-]
You can't get the same 1200 sq ft detached house in the suburbs on an average single income because suburbs have urbanized. But you can usually get a 1200 sq ft apartment in an urban area or a detached house in a rural area.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
More household work was done in this era, before grocery stores sold prepared food, before washing machines. And more people lived in less square footage, with grandparents living in the home, less privacy and autonomy. I don't know if we've made the right trade, but it's not the case that a single worker's income was paying for the kind of lifestyle a family of four now has.
esikich 16 days ago [-]
How is this relevant? The houses built in the 60s aren't affordable either. Look at median income and median home prices. You're telling on yourself. Average families aren't buying prepared food and they have a washing machine from the 90s they bought on craigslist. There's a 90% chance if you are on this site, you are not average. You are a part of the haves and you need to consider that you are living a very different life from the average American, which all this productivity should be helping but fucking clearly isn't.
Auracle 16 days ago [-]
> The houses built in the 60s aren't affordable either.
Far, far more people and the same amount of land.
> Average families aren't buying prepared food and they have a washing machine from the 90s they bought on craigslist.
Well, that's just not true. The average person is absolutely terrible with their money. Not only are they buying prepared food, they're paying someone to drive it to their house.
iamnothere 16 days ago [-]
> Well, that's just not true. The average person is absolutely terrible with their money. Not only are they buying prepared food, they're paying someone to drive it to their house.
The average person is doing this? Do you have sources/stats or are you just going on vibes, or are you looking at people in your (likely non-average) peer group?
Edit: A source I found cites 130 million US delivery app users in 2026, which is a little over 1/3 of Americans. Given that some non-users will call in orders (pizza, Chinese, etc) then it’s plausible that over 50% of people do order delivery from time to time. That said, it’s hard to find good statistics on how much the median person spends on delivery given the likely inflated numbers promoted by delivery app companies. One source said almost 50% preferred ordering delivery through third party apps like DoorDash; if so then how are only 1/3 of Americans actually users of those apps?
Given the numbers on consumer financial stress it’s likely that there is less food delivery happening right now.
yurishimo 16 days ago [-]
No shot. As a general rule of thumb, most Americans, regardless of income, are also in a small mountain of debt. The rich and the poor alike max out their salaries with debt payments and then pile up living expenses on credit. Since that is "fake money" to so many people already, they overspend and convince themselves that using Klarna for a burrito bowl is a reasonable use of resources.
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
According to USDA average spending on restaurants is around $4k/yr. So close to 10% of average income.
defrost 16 days ago [-]
Does that have any bearing on the experiences of those in the lower four wealth quintiles though ?
The trouble with averages is they don't always say much that is accurate about most people .. it all rests on distributions.
iamnothere 16 days ago [-]
Right, you need the median numbers. HNW people are likely skewing the mean.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
Buying prepared food is not a bad thing, it's cheaper than eating out and many people are busy. I live with a lot of roommates and this is what most people are doing. I'm just saying this is not the same division of labor we had before. My mom worked part time and was a part time house wife, she cooked meals for the family from scratch. Parents today are more likely to both work full time and outsource more food preparation. Part of the reason one income could support a family in the 60s is that they were buying raw ingredients and the stay at home parent was doing more house work.
jimbokun 16 days ago [-]
Average families are very much buying prepared food but it’s making us obese.
jimbokun 16 days ago [-]
So: tight knit families, fresh home cooked meals. Sounds like improvements.
Agree that no washing machines outright sucks.
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
You could still do that if you are ok living at 1950 standard of living. Average income back then was $26k in today’s dollars. Even low paying jobs today are better than that.
I’m sure you will say something about housing costing more, which it does. But also many things cost less, such as food and clothing.
Ancalagon 15 days ago [-]
point me at the apartments or houses you can afford today on a single, minimum-wage income with 40 hours a week. I dont care if its 1950s standard vs todays standard.
ambicapter 16 days ago [-]
Can safely disregard everything you say as soon as you say food costs less than it used to.
pluralmonad 16 days ago [-]
All the ersatz food that comprises most of the grocery store shelves may very well be cheaper. This does not make it a better value.
joegibbs 16 days ago [-]
You still can if you want to live like you're in the 60s. My parents grew up eating bread with dripping for most meals, meat since they were farmers, some inexpensive vegetables, not much variety. Houses were half the size and had twice as many people in them, my grandparents did any building or expansions themselves. Public schools with free tuition. No overseas holidays, eating out once a month max. The urban poor had it much worse.
You just can't live an upper-middle class on a single income unless you have a good job, but you couldn't back then either.
spaqin 16 days ago [-]
You can't really live like you're in the 60s. Food and accommodation and other basic costs are going up all the time. Young people in entry-level jobs can barely support themselves while renting a room with flatmates.
Standards of living are going up regardless if we like it or not, and costs as well.
fyrn_ 16 days ago [-]
Shareholders = society.
The rest of us are just the help
munksbeer 16 days ago [-]
Yes. Choose a time and country in history where you would like to be raising a family now as a "median person"? I bet it is within the last 50 years, and specifically in one of the developed nations and probably during the 1970-2000 period. People rarely would choose to go back further.
milutinovici 16 days ago [-]
You can thank neoliberalism
throw0101a 16 days ago [-]
> Computers and the Internet ushered in huge productivity gains.
“You can see the computer age everywhere but in the productivity statistics.” — Robert Solow
We wouldn’t expect productivity to keep growing from one innovation. Growth requires new innovations every year. So in the absence of innovations productivity would stop increasing.
throw0101a 14 days ago [-]
> So in the absence of innovations productivity would stop increasing.
But isn't the premise of "progress" a continuing improvement of things? At what point does it change to "stagnation"?
RGamma 16 days ago [-]
Maybe a lot of applications of computer technology merely represent civilizations' most intricate and expensive hobby?
moduspol 16 days ago [-]
I mean productivity generally, not economic productivity as measured by market cap growth or GDP.
Nobody is operating businesses now without electronic cash registers, POS systems, accounting systems, etc. It's way more productive to use computers and the Internet than to try to accomplish the same stuff without them.
throw0101a 14 days ago [-]
> Nobody is operating businesses now without electronic cash registers, POS systems, accounting systems, etc. It's way more productive to use computers and the Internet than to try to accomplish the same stuff without them.
Well, yes. But once you make the switch and get your productivity boost, that's it: a one-time shot. How do you improve things after that?
glitchc 16 days ago [-]
> I think that's the key difference with AI, though. It's not like I'm losing my job, but at least I have a robot at home that cleans the house and does my laundry.
Do you though? You might be hallucinating those robots. And no, a Roomba doesn't mop the floor, wipe the countertops or clean the toilets.
> I'm OK with accepting a job that pays 10x less if the efficiencies from AI mean we're all living in abundance and life is >10x cheaper. But it's unclear if/when we'll move beyond marginal business impact, aside from in software development, I suppose.
Will it though? Your biggest cost is lodging, either rent or own, and both have consistently increased over the past millenia.
moduspol 16 days ago [-]
> Do you though? You might be hallucinating those robots.
My phrasing could have been better. The "not" applies to the rest of the sentence, not just the first clause. I'm saying it might be OK to lose my job for "progress" if I were personally getting big benefits from AI.
> Will it though? Your biggest cost is lodging, either rent or own, and both have consistently increased over the past millenia.
Lodging is typically <30% of income and housing costs are driven more by policy than market forces. That said, I see no reason why housing costs couldn't also decrease with the right applications of AI, at least in the eyes of its biggest cheerleaders.
throwaway2037 16 days ago [-]
> Computers and the Internet ushered in huge productivity gains. Despite many people losing their jobs as a result
I disagree. I did some light research on the topic. Most economic studies that I found disagree with your conclusion.
danny_codes 16 days ago [-]
>I'm OK with accepting a job that pays 10x less if the efficiencies from AI mean we're all living in abundance
Well, you won't be living in abundance. All productivity gains will go to the oligarchs. You will have slightly less than you had before. Instead of cleaning the floor yourself you'll work the extra hour for the oligarchs doing whatever the robots cant.
That's the path America is on at present.
shimman 16 days ago [-]
Is this a joke? Income inequality is at it's highest (even worse than the gilded age), deaths of despair are at their highest as well, people can't afford childcare (a years worth of childcare costs more than college), people are losing access to health insurance en masse; but we're suppose to think society is truly better off?
What brand of edibles do you have there 'bud? I'd like to fly into that realm of alternate reality for a bit.
Also when have any efficiencies gained by employers benefited workers? Being honest here because the only time workers have truly gained anything was due to solidarity between workers in the forms of strikes + workplace sabotage.
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
When I was a kid “child care” was either your grandparents or the neighborhood kid watching 6 screaming toddlers at once.
I’m pretty sure that doesn’t cost more than college today :).
Our standards have just risen massively.
jimbokun 16 days ago [-]
Many parents would probably love to have grandparents close enough and willing to watch the kids while they work.
moduspol 16 days ago [-]
It sounds crazy now, but prior to the 1970s, sometimes even the mother might primarily provide the child care.
account42 16 days ago [-]
Do you really think that dropping of your kids at a flu factory is a higher standard than having caring relatives (often even one of the parents themselves) available to give them a good childhood?
dalyons 16 days ago [-]
We’re forced to move away from our grandparents and family neighborhood help to have careers to afford to live
freeopinion 15 days ago [-]
If you take a 1x dev and a 2x dev and apply an AI force multiplier, do you get a 10x dev and a 20x dev? Or do you get two 10x devs?
If a human element is required to get value from AI, but any human will do, then devs should get minimum wage. If different humans have a different multiplier when you apply them to AI, they should be compensated accordingly. So if the 1x dev can get 5x out of AI, and the 2x dev can get 2x out of AI, you can fire the 2x2 dev, double the salary of the 1x5 dev, and be more productive for less money[1]. Or you can keep both devs, but pay the 1x5 dev slightly better than the 2x2 dev.
This is all assuming you have some valid way of measuring 1x, 2x, 1x5, and 2x2.
[1] Double salary doesn't have to include double insurance, vacation, etc. But there is also the cost of the AI, so...
Edit: markup
JimDabell 16 days ago [-]
> We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive.
How much money do you think the average developer would be making if we all were using punchcards instead of typing? Inputting machine code instead of using a compiler?
Every time we increase our productivity, we can build bigger and better things for the same amount of effort. This makes us more valuable than before. Our output grows and the world’s appetite for software grows with it.
This has been true for the entire history of the software industry and it’s the reason why developers are very well paid. You may not see it at the individual level, but we are reaping the rewards of increased productivity at the macro level.
dolebirchwood 16 days ago [-]
> 10x’ing our productivity
Normalizing this "10x" language (well before AI) is a factor in this problem.
It's been so loosely and casually thrown about in this industry. 10x engineer... 10x mindset... 10x growth... 10x this... 10x that...
All paraded around by people who fancied themselves to be their own version of 10x whatever.
Well, keep parroting this long enough, and it's just a matter of time before people not only believe it to be commonplace, but they start to expect and demand it.
So now we have AI as the next thing foisted upon us to force everyone to be 10x or die trying.
Should've just settled for being 3.14x engineers like reasonable people.
vanuatu 16 days ago [-]
I think equity compensation should be normalized (or ideally allow employees to choose the % of their compensation is equity vs. cash) so every employee can partake in the upside of the company.
giancarlostoro 16 days ago [-]
Meanwhile my employer still has not given us any AI tooling. I build more things for personal use and for niche hobbies that are more refined, polished and documented than most employers have ever given me in terms of project requirements. Everyone keeps saying the bottleneck was not how fast you can write the code. I believe the bottleneck is two-fold: coding without architecting and no solid business requirements.
I do agree though, give me AI tooling, and I will build you cities, but pay me to match it.
LoveMortuus 16 days ago [-]
>I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now.
I've lost my job in February... Still trying to find a new job... any job...
Arthurian 16 days ago [-]
A thought I’ve been chewing on regarding this….
What if “what do we get out of this?” was built into the tool that we use?
Something like a personal agent that you carry with you from job to job and that accumulates capabilities along with you?
Getting exposure to more and different work could become something that you get a real, tangible benefit from.
packetlost 16 days ago [-]
That would require technology that hasn't yet been created to be created. Tbh I'm happy with just having enough token spend to use on side projects for now.
resonious 16 days ago [-]
It won't get you days off because you (rather, your employer) will fall behind those who didn't opt to take days off.
You'd only get days off if it was only you who got a 10x increase. But it's everybody. So it's status quo: technology advances, and you have to keep up if you want to stay in the industry.
dd8601fn 16 days ago [-]
> It won't get you days off because you (rather, your employer) will fall behind those who didn't opt to take days off.
I don’t believe this is true. Or that more hours worked reliably translates to serious competitive advantage, in general.
But your point stands, because many (or most) employers think it does, and employees are usually incentivized to support that notion.
tumdum_ 16 days ago [-]
40 hours work week wasn’t always the case and yet here we are.
bitwize 16 days ago [-]
> We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us?
Remember the banner hanging over Initech offices with their internal motto: "Is this good for the COMPANY?"
Ultimately, that is the question that matters.
mathattack 16 days ago [-]
The question is are we more like farm workers who will be unemployed because of the farm or accountants who become much more valuable and high paid because of the spreadsheet?
And I am grateful for not working on a farm, it’s hard work!
throw262672 16 days ago [-]
You got into a contract. This contract specified what you will do and usually for how long. Unless this contract specified you need to get X done, I don’t see any way you can argue for this in any way that makes sense.
_Nothing_ I do that benefits my employer directly benefits me. AI or not. That was the whole idea of the relationship: I show up, perform some type of labor and am shielded from the bullshit of doing business (to some tolerable extend). The employer in turn forks over hard cash. The exact, same F amount every month and on time, no discussions about it.
If your actions directly or indirectly caused a loss to the business do you give up free days or pay? I don’t think you should. This works both ways.
However, that’s on the level of the individual. If you’re saying we should unionize, then, hell yes.
jessetemp 16 days ago [-]
Creating a throwaway for this comment is telling
throw23232 16 days ago [-]
It's actually rather boring: I forget/don't care about my account.
jrflowers 16 days ago [-]
Benefits from productivity gains only go to shareholders gp, it’s the foundational principle that underpins the whole world economy :-D
keybored 16 days ago [-]
The top comment explains the point of the article in plain terms. I’m not sure how many levels of jokes we are on.
itsdavesanders 16 days ago [-]
This is exactly why unions are needed. To negotiate for extra benefits and share of the effort for their labor.
11101010010001 16 days ago [-]
just don't call it organized labor.
bix6 16 days ago [-]
I will be automating the things that annoy me so I can spend time on the things I like.
pseudosavant 16 days ago [-]
While I agree with the playful sentiment of the post, this isn't what happened for factory workers as their work has been augmented by automation. Ford makes twice as many vehicles per worker in 2025 than they did in 1960. Did the auto workers get 20-hour work weeks? Nope.
I have to ask myself why we think us white collar knowledge workers are so special? Even if I do dream of a time where automation leads all of us to a 3-4 day work week.
denkmoon 16 days ago [-]
Tech workers _are_ a bunch of chumps. Temporarily embarrassed billionaire startup founders. The vehicle for this is a union, and tech workers abjectly refuse to unionise.
ux266478 16 days ago [-]
> Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
That doesn't increase shareholder value, so it would be a violation of the c-suite's fiduciary responsibility. Sorry, the extra capital will instead be used on stock buybacks.
rootusrootus 16 days ago [-]
<insert required disclaimer here that fiduciary duty does not require using every opportunity to increase shareholder value>
twbarr 16 days ago [-]
Fiduciary responsibility also requires long-term thinking. If AI is writing the code, I need the smartest, most well-rested supervisors I can get.
jmye 16 days ago [-]
> Sorry, the extra capital will instead be used on stock buybacks.
Given how start-up (and thus equity) heavy this board is, that should also directly multiply total comp, even though it was meant as a vapid snipe and isn't actually vaguely valid outside of a handful of very large companies.
trinsic2 16 days ago [-]
I think people should use AI to start their own business instead of working for someone else's vision. I mean if you're working for someone else your choices are limited. And I'm not saying that you should be mistreated. I'm just saying you have more control of your life when you're working for yourself.
Scroll_Swe 15 days ago [-]
I have 25 vacation days per year and so does everyone else in Sweden. And we all use them for real it is not like your PTOs. During summer, we make it work but it is a clear standby mode. The upside is we have to staff up too, with regulars and interns.
This is not a tech problem.
This is a you problem.
*Yes salary is way way way way lower. BUT where in the USA could I take a 10min bus (normal people take the bus here not bums) or walk 30-40min to work feeling totally safe even at night? Nevermind I spent 0 on my education in terms of tuition. And live in a city centre, walking to a grocery store with a 60k studio condo? With high speed 5g and fibre. And I hear in the US you have to worry about water or power cuts? Not here lmao.
I mean that simply you make society what you make it.
Over and out, o7, waiting for [flagged]
win311fwg 16 days ago [-]
> productivity can get us some days off.
Days off might be a challenging ask as the AI needs feedback more often than that. Working sporadically throughout the day, able to do what you please between the AI asking questions, is realistic. We're already there, frankly.
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
Right. If I am producing 10x more output then I expect to be getting paid about 8x more or working 8x less.
swatcoder 16 days ago [-]
You should talk to your union rep about that, because renegotiations like that won't happen on the individual basis just because you think its right. And almost all lack the leverage, individually, to make it happen.
Of course, until just recently, Big Tech workers were so proud to be on top of the world that they didn't think unions made sense for them.
Were you among them? Has that changed?
16 days ago [-]
arjvik 16 days ago [-]
something something you're paid the amount the market values your work, which in today's job market is an order of magnitude less than the profit you bring the company
r-w 16 days ago [-]
Well then why make it easy for my work to get devalued? It's not like workers are sitting on the sidelines here, they (I'm aggregate, at least) hold all the power.
codebje 16 days ago [-]
Sounds like an argument for organised labour to me!
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
The US still largely believes everything that Reagan Republicans preached about the "evils" of taxation and regulation of oligarchy, despite the US economy overall (and the "average joe") doing quite well in the era that followed "soak the rich" taxes being passed.
So many claims about how it would lead to far better lives for everyone, but the working conditions and general affordability have basically gone down for 40 years. Imagine bringing back the white collar work in the 80s, with a private office with a door, and people whose jobs were to help coordinate and schedule things even if you weren't an exec, instead of you just having a phone to answer all hours of the day.
rootusrootus 16 days ago [-]
> in today's job market is an order of magnitude less than the profit you bring the company
Then why have we not all been fired already? Sounds like an instant win.
codebje 16 days ago [-]
Wouldn't the parent's post mean that you bring profit to the company, but you're worth less than the full amount of that profit because, should you demand to be paid more, you can be replaced by someone who won't demand more.
(Has there actually been a lot of terminations in the US tech industry, or is that an odd biasing mechanism causing me to see such things as bigger than they are?)
dalyons 16 days ago [-]
There has been a massive increase , 30% higher q1 26 than 25 and not slowing down
sharts 16 days ago [-]
10x productivity with layoffs to compensate. throw in more AI slop causing more outages and you’re working more than before
monkaiju 16 days ago [-]
I mean productivity gains don't usually go towards making the workers life any better. Also I'm still less than convinced there are any net productivity gains from AI anyway.
coro_1 16 days ago [-]
AI copy pasta misses beats. I've seen people forget to review their comms, and create a lot of confusion, wasting time actually.
codex_dev_33352 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
codex_dev_33352 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
aaron695 16 days ago [-]
[dead]
Rekindle8090 16 days ago [-]
[dead]
Hamster7330 16 days ago [-]
Wow. Yes.
calvinmorrison 16 days ago [-]
well productivity gains are largely met with higher standard of living, quality of life and the upward movement of the lowest classes, for one.
passive 16 days ago [-]
That's not generally true in the US over the last 40 years, where the gains from productivity increases have been accumulated almost entirely by the top classes.
Yes, lower classes have access to many more conveniences then they might have had in earlier decades, but they are working far more hours, and their expected lifespan has started decreasing.
calvinmorrison 16 days ago [-]
my dad grew up in a house without running water in a town where everyone worked in a mine and the lead was everywhere. he hitchiked to alaska for seasonal work in a fish cannery. Yeah I don't know... i think things are better than they were 40 years ago.
Sl1mb0 16 days ago [-]
There are still people in America who live without running water. There are still people who work on fishing boats in Alaska. There are still people who hitchhike. This is literally just an anecdote trying to deflect from contemporary problems. I don't see any value in this sort of discourse.
Just because things may have been worse for specific individuals does *not* mean that current problems shouldn't be addressed.
jmye 16 days ago [-]
> Just because things may have been worse for specific individuals does not mean that current problems shouldn't be addressed.
Suggesting that things are better now than they were in 1986 for the overwhelming majority of people is not, in any way whatsoever, suggesting that
"problems shouldn't be addressed". Come on. Y'all have got to start actually reading things before smashing that reply button.
calvinmorrison 16 days ago [-]
oh no an anecdote! run away!
shimman 16 days ago [-]
You should, especially when said anecdote amounts to "shut the fuck up and be thankful to your corporate overlords peasant."
lostlogin 16 days ago [-]
> i think things are better than they were 40 years ago.
In relative terms, they seem much worse, Americans standing isn’t what it was. In absolute terms, I don’t know. What’s the measure?
jaggederest 16 days ago [-]
I like FSI, which is a dimensionless number taking into account basically the functioning of society and the likelihood for unrest. (Fragile State Index)
It's the highest, at the moment, that it's been since the 1800s. The nadir for the US was in the late 40s early 50s when we had a 92% top marginal tax rate and extremely high social cohesion despite massive WW2 debts. Needless to say the late 40s and early 50s was not exactly utopia, but substantially more stable.
Wobbles42 16 days ago [-]
The measure was clearly stated: the life style of that one guy's dad. He's the official consumer well being canary.
chrisweekly 16 days ago [-]
What is the relevance of "Americans standings" circa 1986?
ux266478 16 days ago [-]
Things are better for you than your dad, presumably. Unfortunately, many Americans still live like that, so the conclusion doesn't hold water.
p-e-w 16 days ago [-]
That hasn’t been true for decades in the West, even though per-capita productivity has been steadily rising since WW2.
MichaelZuo 16 days ago [-]
Are you sure?
From the data I’ve seen the bottom decile Americans consume significantly more per capita compared to even 2006.
e.g. plane travel was completely absent amongst the bottom decile in 2006, like so close to zero mileage per capita per annum it was a rounding error.
king_geedorah 16 days ago [-]
Is bottom decile consumption a good measure of economic health? In a way it seems it could signal the opposite, ie in the past the bottom decile was saving that money in an effort to change their economic conditions vs spending it now could indicate a lack of hope for upward mobility.
To your example it seems worth noting that the quality of the air travel experience appears to decline over time as well.
MichaelZuo 16 days ago [-]
Bottom decile consumption is the best measure of economic health for the bottom decile… it clearly cannot be the best measure across the entirety of the population.
Real physical consumption is by far the hardest metric to game or play tricks with.
Yes technically, some probably are trading a bit of their future prospects for a nicer flight schedule, less red-eyes, etc… But I don’t see how that is relevant at all?
p-e-w 16 days ago [-]
Plane travel is a very poor proxy for quality of life.
Home ownership, high-quality food, working hours etc. seem far more relevant.
MichaelZuo 16 days ago [-]
Huh?
People will, intentionally, work longer hours to afford more frequent plane travel. And to upgrade classes, perks, lounge access, etc…
I’m pretty sure there are literally millions of people like that.
I hate to imagine what this graph looks like today, given the massive amount of inflation that's happened in the last 6 years.
winterbourne 16 days ago [-]
It's a modern version of: "we're firing you, but your last task will be to train your lower-cost replacement".
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
Working out why the workweek is 5 days, non-negotiably, even if you'd be willing to be paid less in proportion, comes down to realizing that it's being maximized subject to the constraint that everybody would flip out if it was 6, and then working out why it's being maximized.
What it's telling you is that a company would rather have 4 people working 5 days a week than 5 people working 4 days a week. The reason for that is, productivity drops a lot when it's spread out over multiple people. The reason behind that is communication overhead - the more context an individual carries in their heads, the less likely their role will exist on an hourly basis in the industry.
So, if anyone wants AI to give us another day off, we need to think about how it can reduce the cost of "context switching" a whole person on and off a task, without simultaneously formalizing our roles so much that it gives us all five. ;-)
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
> Working out why the workweek is 5 days, non-negotiably, even if you'd be willing to be paid less in proportion, comes down to realizing that it's being maximized subject to the constraint that everybody would flip out if it was 6, and then working out why it's being maximized.
This ignores a lot of historical fighting (sometimes literally!) to get it down to 5 in the first place.
If everyone sufficiently "flips out" about it being 5 then the problem of "reduce the context switching problem" is something the owner can try to figure out.
Cause otherwise, you could find a perfect solution to that problem, and still not have leverage to make ownership actually change anything vs just raise expectations that much higher.
(Meanwhile, some companies are trying to import 996 and push it past 5 for white-collar work anyway, so any sort of non-political, non-disruptive action seems doomed to fail since the status quo is moving the wrong direction.)
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
The "flipping out" aspect is something that does not seem to have a lot to do with technology at this time or in the past.
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
>The "flipping out" aspect is something that does not seem to have a lot to do with technology at this time or in the past.
How so? Without technology we wouldn't have a "work week" in the first place and work would be much more directly tied to survival of the community and generally less negotiable in the first place. The "flipping out" came about precisely because technology changed what work was and what the conditions around it were while people noticed that those new expectations and conditions didn't actually seem necessary for their survival (or even much to their personal direct benefit vs the benefit of business owners).
Any technology that lets more be done with less time is an opportunity for a population to make an attempt to claim some of those gains for themselves.
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
The past had slaves too. The feudal arrangement of tenant farmers was only one system of labor. I don't think union bargaining was ever tied to specific advances in technology.
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
Sorry, I'm drawing a blank on much history of slaves in a extremely-low-technological society or how it was imposed or ended in those societies, could you provide some examples of what you're meaning exactly by bringing slavery up? Feudalism or other things happening in those centuries is well into the technological era.
Are you saying you can't think of examples from the past of the introduction of technology changing labor dynamics or organization? Say, mechanical agriculture?
The changes are hardly going to always be good - there's no determinism of "new technology means society will get 'better'". But they've often been periods of change, and such periods are when it's easier to influence the direction if you happen to care about the direction of the change.
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
When you say technological era, do you mean anything after the introduction of potery, writing, or what? Because you can trace slavery back to the earliest recorded civilizations, but it won't be easy to trace it to before a written record.
thaumasiotes 16 days ago [-]
> What it's telling you is that a company would rather have 4 people working 5 days a week than 5 people working 4 days a week. The reason for that is, productivity drops a lot when it's spread out over multiple people.
Why make that assumption? The company has a lot of per-employee fixed costs, which means that it's much more expensive to have 5 employees than 4 employees under the assumption that total productivity is exactly equal in both cases. (And the further assumption that you pay more productive workers more than you pay less productive workers.)
If you want flexibility on the work week, get rid of the concept of "full-time employee" status and make everyone contractors.
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
Not every role is suitable for contracting. An individual can become a part-time developer by freelancing, but if you do that you get very specific kinds of jobs, ones with high compartmentalization.
thaumasiotes 16 days ago [-]
Contracting is a legal status. It has nothing to do with the role.
Within software development, most contractors aren't freelancing.
ikr678 16 days ago [-]
Its not a communication overhead, it's that business owners want to maximise their returns on their fixed operating costs subject to the 5 day limit.
One extra staff member in a traditional office is extra software license, extra seating, extra hardware, extra HR/payroll/insurance, extra risk, extra training etc etc.
Remember to thank your unions for the weekend.
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
If it was utilization of fixed capital that motivated the maximum-length workweek of today and centuries past, they wouldn't mind who was on the shifts or how many so long as there were three of them.
majormajor 16 days ago [-]
I'd be surprised if the jobs where it highly matters which employer covers the shift weren't significantly outnumbered by the ones where it generally doesn't. Labor-as-a-commodity has been an explicit goal of a lot of industrialization management methods.
qazxcvbnmlp 16 days ago [-]
I think this is where one of the biggest gains in productivity from AI will come from. Even if it levels off at current levels of “intelligence” a 30% reduction in team size will save alot of communication overhead.
We think of productivity as linear to the number of employees, but it’s more of Log(N) for knowledge work because of the communication overhead. If your AI spend and employee productivity improvement ends up being proportional to headcount thats a linear gain that used to be Log(N).
whatshisface 16 days ago [-]
The drivers behind the asymptotic scaling are the tasks that can't be compartmentalized into prompts, the same tasks that couldn't be compartmentalized into a request for another person to do.
cm11 16 days ago [-]
This analysis makes sense to me. I'll add that the little bit of research that's come out suggests individual people are as productive in four day work weeks as five, which doesn't contradict your point.
The other thing is that if leadership is better—they have stronger vision and coordinate the silos (of people or teams) themselves—the communication overhead is less. The more each level needs to communicate, sync, and align with each other, the more it reflects the top not doing it. This is so thoroughly normalized today that it's hard to see otherwise. As you move down the hierarchy, the theory embedded in the chosen org structure that most tech companies have, is that less communicating should be necessary. This is what middle managers (and product managers) are supposed to be for—coordinating and communicating to take that off the plate of their subordinates. The lack of leadership above is why the managers below get hired. Those managers then do the same and eventually ICs need to coordinate amongst themselves.
duskdozer 16 days ago [-]
It is also incentivized because a demand for 25% more employees (assuming constant person-days) shifts power to labor from employers.
palmotea 16 days ago [-]
> This article is kind of playful, but I think there’s a serious point here that’s not discussed enough. We’re being asked to usher in huge productivity gains by introducing AI to our workflows, but we’re not asking how does it help us? Not a lot of us stand to directly gain from our employers becoming more productive.
And we shouldn't. Workers should only get the wages they can command in the marketplace and not a penny more, and the smaller the better.
> I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should be seriously asking in our next all hands meetings if 10x’ing our productivity can get us some days off. Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
Morally, all benefits of any technology or productivity gain must flow up to the owners, who deserve it all.
But this should be comforting to all of you. I'm sure everyone here owns at least a few thousand dollars in shares. You'll get some dividends and/or capital gains!
alexpotato 16 days ago [-]
My dad was a stock broker in the late 1970s and remembers when most of trading was 100% manual and firms actually had "runners" who would take stock certificates back and forth between trading firms.
He has this great quote about when computers came out:
"We were told 'computers will save you so much time on work tasks that you won't even know what to do with your free time'. I spent the next 30 years working the same number of hours. "
throw0101a 16 days ago [-]
> He has this great quote about when computers came out: "We were told 'computers will save you so much time on work tasks that you won't even know what to do with your free time'. I spent the next 30 years working the same number of hours. "
From about one hundred years ago:
> Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes.
[…]
> For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us!
* John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren" (1930)
An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive):
In some European countries, you can actually go on welfare and never work again. It takes some tricks because the state doesn’t like it; and maybe you‘ll want to do some undeclared side jobs for 15h a week and you’ll be comfortable.
I don’t know how such people can live with themselves. But apparently, if you’re immune to the second factor, it is possible, nowadays, to work 15h or less, without any wealth, and lead a good life.
The only thing threatening this status quo is corporations and rich people pulling their wealth into other states; and related, being net importers. I don’t understand why the EU is allowing this to happen. They should grow some teeth finally.
simulator5g 16 days ago [-]
Oh sure, you get free stuff indefinitely if you abuse the system. You sound like that tiktok post about the "infinite free money glitch" that is check fraud.
rhubarbtree 16 days ago [-]
Interestingly, this is how a lot of rich people make their money. They do something bad and then get the state to bail them out. For example, bankers trading recklessly, taking the bonuses and then leaving govt to sort out the mess, effectively back-paying their bonuses.
Another example is privatisation in the UK: scrap all investment, load the company with debt, leave the consumer and govt to sort out the mess.
So the rich do it too, just on a much grander scale.
rexpop 15 days ago [-]
> The net of law is spread so wide, \ No sinner from its sweep may hide. \ Its meshes are so fine and strong, \ They take in every child of wrong. \ O wondrous web of mystery! \ Big fish alone escape from thee!
-- James Jeffrey Roche (1847 - 1908)
manmal 15 days ago [-]
And? Try doing that 200y ago. There was no system to exploit. The system exists because progress has made it possible.
tasuki 16 days ago [-]
> it is possible, nowadays, to work 15h or less, without any wealth, and lead a good life.
This is possible even without welfare.
Some friends of mine choose to do this: live in a shared flat, no car, no kids, it's easily doable. They live a good live and are happy.
(Let me add that I'm forty)
yladiz 16 days ago [-]
Which European countries?
Ekaros 16 days ago [-]
"Good" life might be bit questionable. But Finland at least it is possible. Existence will be meagre without other cashflows in cash. Might even be okay if you can make proper amount of cash.
manmal 15 days ago [-]
I did mention that some side job is required for a good life. 15h certainly enough. Once AGI is here that might be our future.
Australia no problem. Most liberal welfare in the world
stephen_g 15 days ago [-]
Unemployment (JobSeeker payment) is actually pretty brutal here, we have a thing called ‘mutual obligation requirements’ where you have to go to meetings with (very ineffective but extremely profitable) private job service providers who force you to apply for enough jobs per week (no matter if they’re relevant or not).
Decades ago there was what I have read was an extremely effective Government department called the ’Commonwealth Employment Services’ but that was disbanded and contracts handed to private firms for excuses like “efficiency” that (surprise) didn’t end up panning out.
November_Echo 16 days ago [-]
> Australia no problem. Most liberal welfare in the world
Jobseeker is a maximum of $26k per year, but for most people it's going to be around $21k [1]. What else are you using supplement that because that feels like it would be close to the poverty line.
I think the FIRE movement is a response to how absurd this is, but it feels kind of wrong that you have to front load all of the saving for your whole life in the first 30 years.
I'd love to work 3 days a week now and be paid a livable amount, rather than grind 5 days a week, getting paid more than I need so I can retire fast. But tech companies don't want you for 3 days a week, its 5 or nothing for most of them.
mattlondon 16 days ago [-]
Well many places allow you to do 80% time (at least in the UK)... but you get 80% pay, 80% bonus, 80% holiday accrual etc too.
And from experience it seems that 80% people need to try damn hard to actually keep it at 80% and not get sucked into doing more to "keep up".
aranelsurion 16 days ago [-]
IDK about UK but in Germany it’s the law that employees can request 80% work at 80% pay and can’t be denied except for significant operational reasons and such.
As you said, it can be a double edged sword to be the 80% worker in the otherwise 100% team.
sobani 16 days ago [-]
> it seems we actually work more than our ancestors.
Only if you count the hours worked for the local lord and forget about all other mandatory work like:
I get your point, but people still have chores to do today. Ultimately, there is a big difference between doing work for yourself, and doing work for someone else for a wage.
In one instance you keep the value you are creating, in the other it goes to your employer.
Given the choice between the two I would much prefer to work for myself, as a matter of dignity.
knownjorbist 16 days ago [-]
I don't think this is an accurate picture for a number of reasons, first and foremost that these people regularly died from trivially preventable reasons. That luxury today takes a lot of effort from a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure most of white collar HN crowd isn't being ground into dust. It'd be cool to work less though!
yladiz 16 days ago [-]
Well yeah we didn’t have antibiotics and other knowledge we have now. But that doesn’t change the fact people worked less in the past.
kelseyfrog 16 days ago [-]
But we have iPhone.
dyauspitr 16 days ago [-]
People waited around a lot before, and since the baseline speed for everything was slower, no one had an edge. Now everything is fast and instantaneous and that’s available to everyone. It’s part of the reason why our lives are so stressful now. I remember my parents working and their work had significantly less stress on a day-to-day basis. Everything was at a nice relaxed human pace. They would be responsible for one excel sheet’s worth of work per week, which we can now do in an hour or two.
kevinsmith51 16 days ago [-]
Environment doesn't impose stress on us. Our reaction to it does. Learn to control that response, can use it to your advantage when you choose to let it in.
davemp 16 days ago [-]
I’m pretty certain there are physiological limits that you can’t just muscle through and stress _can_ be an indicator that you’re reaching said limits.
kevinsmith51 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, didn't mean it as just need to "muscle through". Just sharing the framing that has helped me.
Gigachad 16 days ago [-]
There are certainly some environments that do. The data is clear that things like loud traffic noise increases stress.
dyauspitr 16 days ago [-]
That’s all well and good, but I kind of live for things outside of my career (even though I have a good one).
hellojeanpierre 16 days ago [-]
We worked 6 days a week before, Germany got to 5 days only in 1967 after years of strikes.
bawis 15 days ago [-]
Is there any English source for more information about the years of strikes you mentioned?
krapp 16 days ago [-]
People work 5 days a week because of protracted violent strikes by unions and socialist revolutionaries forcing governments to recognize labor rights. Prior to that the norm was working 7 days a week, sunup to sundown, with only Christmas off, from adolescence until you died.
11101010010001 16 days ago [-]
SEs would rather play many player versions of the prisoner's dilemma than unionize.
lofties 16 days ago [-]
You're right. We need to bring back protracted violent strikes by unions and socialists!
babelfish 16 days ago [-]
When rights are equal, force wins. This is true for either the worker or the employer. Hence why employers frequently employed private firms to commit said violence on unions.
zasz 16 days ago [-]
You know the ones bringing most of the violence were the state and private goons hired by capitalists, right?
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
Not really true but it’s a nice story
krapp 16 days ago [-]
It's a nice story and it's true.
Weekends, sick days, vacation days, being paid in legal tender and not company scrip, maternity leave, safety regulations, disabled affordance, banning child labor, civil rights and womens' rights (while they lasted) and the minimum wage. All due to socialist activism and a non-zero amount of violence.
16 days ago [-]
kakacik 16 days ago [-]
Hold your socialist jihad propaganda a bit off, sundays were definitely off days for festivities, visiting church etc. Definitely all over Europe, its still frowned upon in many places to do any amount of ie house work during sundays.
cucumber3732842 15 days ago [-]
Banning child labor is literally the "I'm helping" meme but for government.
Child went away mostly on its own (as did labor by the disabled) because industrialization made all that non-competitive compared to a normal adult operating some machine. Then, once child labor was relegated to a few niches of limited overall economic importance the government showed up and banned it to win a few brownie points from some jerks.
Child labor isn't a success of some socialists 100yr ago. It's a success of some propagandists 100yr ago.
Willish42 15 days ago [-]
Computers feel like a pretty good analogy for how AI will affect the workforce.
I suspect productivity will massively increase, the complexity and cognitive load of our work will similarly multiply, and yet we'll still being doing the now-more-complex work in some capacity for a similar number of hours.
They used to charge you by the minute but now it's easier to just charge you a flat charge per month.
paulddraper 16 days ago [-]
Because human nature it to want more, more than wanting idleness.
engineer_22 16 days ago [-]
Weird to be downvoted for obviously correct analysis...
paulddraper 16 days ago [-]
Never underestimate people’s desire to blame the environment.
class3shock 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
paulddraper 16 days ago [-]
That's also true, inclusively.
class3shock 15 days ago [-]
No, the average worker does not live to work. The average shareholder and executive lives to extract every ounce of work possible out of the average workers.
sharpshadow 16 days ago [-]
It is the fundamental requirement of capitalism to convert every increase in productivity into profit rather than into time.
In a communist society where the people own the means of production collectively the measure of wealth would not be money but disposable free time.
redrove 15 days ago [-]
So the theory goes. Can you point out one place where this is working out?
madrox 16 days ago [-]
The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.
It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it.
The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, and in the case of well paid knowledge workers those don't even tend to apply. If you ever read HR material referring to your role as "exempt" now you know what you're exempt from.
gabrieledarrigo 16 days ago [-]
> but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.
A four-day-a-week worker here.
I don't know what you exactly mean, but my personal experience is exactly the opposite. I worked for a startup as a founding engineer, just 4d/w (the CTO was crazily open-minded), and I was never so productive. Doesn't matter that the others were working 5 days, pushing more; it was my responsibility to keep up, and it worked pretty well.
Same now, working for a company with the same arrangement.
And no one is or was "losing."
maleldil 16 days ago [-]
Out of curiosity, how many hours per day did you work? Was it the same overall time as a 5-day week, just distributed over 4 days, or did you work a whole day less than others?
NothingAboutAny 16 days ago [-]
I went through a big back and forth with a small startup where I initially negotiated in at 3 days a week.
Eventually they said "we really need you the full 5 days" and I explained that I'm gonna do the same amount of work regardless and they could pay me 40% less by agreeing to 3 days.
they still wanted me 5 days, so I took the job and just coasted those 2 days from home, they were still very happy with my performance, I ended up quitting in 6 months because I wanted my hours in the day back.
I really think management still doesn't get it.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
I personally believe in rolling company shutdowns. Give engineering a week off every quarter. Give product the following week off.
apt-apt-apt-apt 16 days ago [-]
Alright guys, I'm running for president. 4 day work weeks (8 hours each) for employees or prison.
BirAdam 16 days ago [-]
You could likely get some funding for a PAC based around this. You just have to get Altman, Musk, and the other to realize that it’s a good marketing move.
“Our AI is so awesome and boosts productivity so much that no one has to work another 5 day week, ever again.”
pmdr 16 days ago [-]
Musk is in favor for 12-hour days 7 days a week and no unions.
fendy3002 16 days ago [-]
benefits for the commoner? not in a million years they will support that
stemlord 15 days ago [-]
Musk supported the pretense of free speech online when he bought the bird website. Again, it's just letting them see the marketing benefit, not convincing them to actually care (assuming that's impossible)
toomuchtodo 16 days ago [-]
You have my vote. Work to live, don’t live to work.
~90% of Iceland is on a 35-36 hours work week, seems to work fine.
Remote work was also skeptically thought of up until a global pandemic forced it, and while there has been some retreat, 20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still. Just need a catalyst to challenge norms and rigid mental models.
>20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still
That's a pretty abysmal number considering the number who do want remote work and its productivity improvements and its overall lower waste. I'm surprised it's so low.
Maybe don't force how many days people should work. Force number of hours (32) and let people decide, how many days...
madrox 16 days ago [-]
You have my vote. Clearly anyone can do it.
burnto 16 days ago [-]
My thinking tends to be that our standard work week is an equilibrium among a few different forces. We’re motivated by social norms, capital markets, and biological needs and wants. In places like the U.S. the market forces have been powerful enough to really shift social norms. In tandem they’re probably slowly altering our biology too.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
I think you are right. It is practically baked into the American Dream.
ranyume 16 days ago [-]
What do you mean? You just need to ban companies from doing 5 days work.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
Amusingly, there is literally not even a 7 day work week ban for companies in the US. You can require employees work every day. Employers are just required to pay employees overtime under various conditions beyond 40 hours / five days a week, which is why you don't see it.
And what's more, software engineers are exempt from these rules because of their pay grades. If you're a SWE making a salary the odds are your employer could require you work on Saturdays without running afowl of labor laws.
This is all powered by norms.
culi 16 days ago [-]
it's not powered by norms. In the US, if you want to employ someone more than 40 hours you have to give them extra overtime pay. It's called the Fair Labor Standards Act and it was passed in 1938
madrox 16 days ago [-]
Unless you are exempt. Guess what profession tends to be considered exempt?
If you are a SWE, you don't get paid overtime for working that incident on the weekend or going over 40 hours in a week. The only reason you work five days a week is tradition.
dalyons 16 days ago [-]
Hence the rise of 996 bs
kelnos 16 days ago [-]
It's easy to get around that; just switch your employees to a salaried arrangement, and now you're exempt from shelling out for overtime pay.
Give the employees enough work such that they have to work on weekends... and... done.
zeroonetwothree 16 days ago [-]
"Yeah, hello, Peter. What's happening? Listen, um, I'm going to need you to go ahead and come in on Saturday. So, if you could be here around 9, that would be great. Mmhkay? Oh, oh, and I almost forgot. I'm also going to need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too."
16 days ago [-]
lII1lIlI11ll 16 days ago [-]
You would also need to ban them from employing people in other countries that allow 5 days work.
dwg 16 days ago [-]
Same logic applies internationally.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
Pretty much everywhere outside the US has stronger employee protections on this (with a few obvious notable exceptions).
France is a great place to be an employee.
hx8 16 days ago [-]
By this logic you could get promoted if you worked six day work weeks.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
Have you not seen people who work longer and harder get more promotions? That has been my experience.
lofties 16 days ago [-]
Right, so if it's happening already, nothing is going to change. Four days a week it is!
AngryData 16 days ago [-]
Not outside of the tech world, and in many industries if you aren't salaried it can get you fired because they have to pay overtime.
ishtanbul 16 days ago [-]
In finance this is the norm. The people who work the most make the most and there are no rules. I’ve seen people get fired for not working weekends. And overtime is not a thing, its just end of year bonuses.
satvikpendem 16 days ago [-]
There's a reason 996 culture is seeping into American startups. Whether it actually makes them more productive in the market remains to be seen.
shimman 16 days ago [-]
Yes, it's quite sad that when big tech leadership talks positively about China they really like the exploitive labor practices that the country exhibits.
dozerly 16 days ago [-]
And this is true… employees who work and produce more, better things often get promoted. Spending more time doing things leads to producing more and better things
lII1lIlI11ll 16 days ago [-]
I did get promoted for working seven days work weeks. Twice, in fact.
kakacik 16 days ago [-]
My wife effectively works 3-4 days a week. For mums with young kids its pretty common here in western Europe to have 60% deal, most I know have 80% deal. It means 3-4 days a week just to be sure, not say 6 work hour days.
Made up self-pressure is among the worst things smart folks can do in their lives.
intronic 16 days ago [-]
Four day work week for same pay is entirely possible - change how the work happens
You can actually work 4 x 8 if you want to. Or 5x5... No gun to your head
Yeah, agreed, you'll have a hard time finding a job with full benis and vacation yada yada, but like,.... Every CEO loves to negotiate
So stop being a bitch
If 4x8 is important to you:
Negotiate
***************
Reply to madrox:
"Demands" is a loaded term. In negotiations you enter with "must haves" and "like to haves"...
Through the course of negotiations you learn new information and reveal your own information....
At the end, whether you take the job or not: you end up with what you deserve. Not what you want.
By my assessment, a lot of people are learning that "deserve" is not a character trait, it's market driven.
16 days ago [-]
madrox 16 days ago [-]
This is true, and there is usually a tradeoff you make for it. To your point, it's a negotiation. You usually give something up to get something or be so good you simply cannot be replaced. Such people do not represent the bulk of the workforce, and we're talking about norms here.
Because to that CEO you're talking about, you have to convince them your demands are better than the next candidate who doesn't mind working more hours.
bean469 16 days ago [-]
> if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.
If that is the case, wouldn't the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends?
thiagowfx 16 days ago [-]
I feel these vibes whilst living in Munich (or Bavaria, for that matter). Most stores / shops are forbidden to operate on Sundays or past 8pm, that is enshrined in an ancient law. If you want to open a new store and you are willing to operate Sundays, or perhaps until 10pm, and your employees are also willing to work then...nope, can't do it. Would get ahead of the competition. Not fair, blablabla.
bean469 16 days ago [-]
> The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work.
If that is the case, then the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends.
sneak 16 days ago [-]
Why isn’t this the case for a six day workweek?
madrox 16 days ago [-]
This is a great question and I encourage you to learn the history of it, because it's fascinating. It’s rooted in labor movements and industrialization.
jedimastert 16 days ago [-]
It was, the 40 hour work week was hard fought for.
Also, 996 is apparently a thing
kelnos 16 days ago [-]
Yes, it's just norms. 15 years ago, I worked for a small startup. For a good 8 or 9 months, we were working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. We weren't contractually required to, but everyone "wanted" to. I use scare quotes there, but I think a lot of people (myself included, for part of it), really did want to.
But ultimately the unsaid thing was: you either work 6/7 days a week, or you get marginalized or fired. And it's not like we weren't putting in the hours on the weekdays; most of us were working 12-hour days, or more. (And wow, we got to drop down to 8-10 on the weekends! So generous!)
Dumb. I'll never do something like that again. Not worth it, and certainly not for someone else's company.
nrlucas 15 days ago [-]
This is why it needs to be done top down. Pareto optimizations can only happen that way.
pickleglitch 16 days ago [-]
This is why labor laws and unions exist. It's unfortunate that in the US both have diminished under a withering assault from the ruling class over the past several decades.
zanecodes 16 days ago [-]
If only there were some kind of third party we could all collectively agree to delegate enforcement of cooperation to...
madrox 16 days ago [-]
Interestingly, software engineers are usually considered exempt in the US, meaning they can be required to work more than 40 hours a week without overtime pay if employers choose to.
Unless you're imagining congress do something. I want to shoot fireballs from my fingers, but unfortunately we don't live in a world of magic.
quadrifoliate 16 days ago [-]
Influencing Congress is wildly easier than shooting fireballs from your fingers. This is supposed to be a site with optimistic people that do things. Imagine what you could do politically with the help of LLMs.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
If you think it's so doable, I welcome you to do it. I will be happy to say I am wrong if you pull it off. However, if congress has not even banned a seven day work week I don't see how they will reduce it to four because, of all job segments, tech workers want it.
Meanwhile I did some googling and I can buy a wrist-mounted flamethrower for $175, which is close enough to my fingers to make no difference.
shimman 16 days ago [-]
You can lobby Congress to do things, even better you can volunteer at campaigns and try to elect people to Congress that want to do these things.
Acting like we are helpless and the future is determined is straight up loser talk while also not being historically accurate in the slightest.
You should go read about people starting wildcat strikes while working in literal company towns. There is tremendous power when we organize together, a power so great the elites have spent almost a 100 years trying to destroy the fruits of their success.
madrox 16 days ago [-]
You, too, can do these things. I welcome you to. I will be happy to say I am wrong. Unions have real potential for creating change. I personally have no interest in joining a union for other reasons, but I am not opposed to them either.
But we weren't talking about unions. We were talking about congress. I think you will find that tech workers are not the only job segment, and far from the most sympathetic due to their wages. Lobbying for an extra day off will not get you far in the face of many more pressing issues, and the party most likely to stand up for workers is more interested in stopping data centers at the moment. Unless you're talking about a time horizon past which I don't think I'll be around to notice.
sneak 16 days ago [-]
If only. The only way to delegate enforcement is to give them a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. Unfortunately all such potential organizations are run by human beings, who, when given violence as a tool, will use that violence as a tool.
pluralmonad 16 days ago [-]
> enforcement of cooperation
That is an oxymoron. I think you probably meant coercion.
Taronar 16 days ago [-]
Cynical take because why arent we working 6 days a week then
km144 16 days ago [-]
Because, as the OP said, working hours are powered by norms. There are salaried positions and companies and teams that certainly will make you work 6 days a week, or make you feel like a bad worker if you don't do anything on a Saturday. But the vast majority of companies (and employees within those companies) would consider the expectation of working a 6th day to be completely unacceptable.
terminalgravity 16 days ago [-]
Benefits for extra productivity filter up to the shareholders not to the workers producing the extra productivity.
This reminds me of the Luddite movement in England. Industrial machines were disrupting the textile industry. The Luddites were not anti technology they were against technology allowing employers to suppress wages and working conditions and for increasing the quality of life and more humane working conditions for the extra productivity.
As we know their movement was not successful giving rise to the bleak images of industrial factory life in England. I think all that will happen is workers will expect to be more productive than before but their skills will be less compensated because “the machine” did most of the work.
> The Luddites were not anti technology they were against technology allowing employers to suppress wages and working conditions and for increasing the quality of life and more humane working conditions for the extra productivity.
I’m seeing this talking point circulated a lot recently but it’s not really the whole story. Luddites weren’t on a selfless crusade to steal from the rich and give to the poor. They wanted to fight off competition for their specific jobs. They didn’t want anyone having access to cheaper fabrics and clothes and other things because that was their golden goose. They wanted to be in control and force you to go through the inefficient methods to get those things because it benefited themselves.
A closer modern day analog would be something like the dock workers striking to keep automation out of ports. They have a sweet gig and they don’t want machines doing anything to jeopardize their stranglehold on ports, even if it would benefit literally everyone else in the entire country if we could modernize our ports like the rest of the world.
GeoAtreides 16 days ago [-]
It is you that is spreading misinformation. I suggest everyone thinking Aurornis is right, to read the article below, from the smithsonian.
>But the Luddites themselves “were totally fine with machines,” says Kevin Binfield, editor of the 2004 collection Writings of the Luddites. They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices.
>“They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods,” says Binfield, “and they wanted these machines to be run by workers who had gone through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were their only concerns.”[1]
We've banned this account. There have been several warnings and the trend is only getting worse. We want HN to be a place to discuss difficult topics, and this should be a good place to discuss the relationship between labor and capital, given that there are many users on each side of the table. But such inflammatory, demeaning terminology as this just poisons the threads and makes it impossible to have constructive discussions.
__loam 16 days ago [-]
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warkdarrior 16 days ago [-]
I don't know, since I cannot afford the boot. Apparently it was priced way out of my range because the boot was unloaded of a ship by an expensive human dock worker.
Helloworldboy 16 days ago [-]
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al_borland 16 days ago [-]
I've worked 3x12, 4x10, and 5x8, without AI. I think I was most productive on the 3x12 schedule. On the days I worked, I was able to lock in and get a lot done, and had a significant amount of time outside of the normal working hours, which were free from meetings and distractions. During those 3 days all I really did was work and sleep. On the 4 days off I was able to rest and recover and actually have a life. It also gave my mind time to process issues in the background. When I had an ah-ha moment during my time off, I could note it down, and when I showed up on a work day, I was able to solve some of those problems I wasn't able to solve in the moment. It was a great system.
I've been trying to figure out how to bring the idea up to my boss of going back to it... at least the 4x10.
Aurornis 16 days ago [-]
> During those 3 days all I really did was work and sleep.
This is why 3x12 is not workable for average families. If you have kids and want to see them, 3x12 only works if you start really really early, then get to bed early when the kids do too.
I enjoyed 4x10 when I did it, but there were some real problems with some employees trying to adapt. Anecdotally we were seeing a lot of people who would barely work until the 8 hour mark and then just zone out or socialize while they waited the clock out at the end of the day.
Which is all too bad for those of us who work well with longer days.
chrisweekly 16 days ago [-]
IME most people don't have more than 4 (maybe 5) hours of effective heavy cognitive / creative energy in a given day. Of course YMMV, and it's common to have periods of sustained output when deeply committed to and energized by something, but over the long haul, week in, week out, splitting the workday into roughly 8h sleep, 8h work, 8h everything else, with 2/7 days off plus many holidays and some weeks of paid vacation seems like a reasonable default to me -- for the traditional salaried role. If your preferences deviate much from that baseline, the entrepreneurial / consulting / fractional approach would probably be better aligned.
xboxnolifes 15 days ago [-]
Only having 4-5 hours of effective cognitive energy per day is exactly why I would want fewer work days and more off days. Because that "8 hours every thing else" is not the same as the 8 hours of work, you've already blown your cognitive load.
16 days ago [-]
tamimio 16 days ago [-]
I worked a job before that did require some heavy thinking, design, solving problems, etc., and for some reason I only get creative from 1am to 4am, and I did an amazing job in that period for whatever work was required, only later that my boss didn’t like it and wanted to force me to do normal schedule, in the office, my outcome degraded significantly and eventually had to leave the work, it’s just I couldn’t handle the mornings besides replying to some emails.
markus_zhang 16 days ago [-]
I think that’s more about what you do than how you do it. And sometimes when to do it.
You could try a data engineer’s life which is full of meetings, ad-hoc tasks and other BS —- everything that screams that this is not a real engineer job.
arjvik 16 days ago [-]
in tech, we (frequently are expected to) work 5x12!
I never understand why software engineers are so excited about AI as a whole.
If you are excited about the technology, sure. But if you are excited about the increase in productivity, unless you are a manager, I don't really understand it. Like, why? You are not working one hour less than before. If anything, it's more likely you'll get laid off and have trouble finding your next job.
OneOffAsk 16 days ago [-]
There’s a natural desire for people to want to make things. Most of the time it’s physical: homes, crafts, woodworking. But for a few of us it’s ok for it to be non physical. Actually, that’s part of the allure of programming: you don’t need much more than a computer and some thinking to build incredibly intricate… things. AI is like a brand new power tool. It’s fun to use because you can build faster. I felt a sense of giddiness the first time I used a table saw after using a push saw my whole life.
dalyons 16 days ago [-]
I think you’re missing the op’s point. Yes it’s fun but you don’t personally get any of the gains. Just more work
srdjanr 16 days ago [-]
Well fun can be the gain
tasuki 16 days ago [-]
I think you're missing the point. The person you replied to wrote:
> a natural desire for people to want to make things
... and all you can think of is "gains"?
burnto 16 days ago [-]
I think a lot of us aren’t rational about it. I tend to feel excited about changes for which productivity is a side effect, even if it’s not my motivation. It’s hard to say no to extending my capabilities and insulating myself from the more boring repetitive tasks.
If your job was 80-90% shoveling and one day you were offered use of an excavator, wouldn’t you find that exciting even while realizing the shoveling part of your career is probably dead?
NietTim 16 days ago [-]
I've never had this much fun at work. There was nothing more that I disliked in my job than months long projects with everything already planned out in advance. It made work extremely predictable and boring, the project was already fully thought out, all that needed to be done was the boring bit of writing all the code that you already know how to write, all the fun of exploring different ideas and implementation directions was already done.
tasuki 16 days ago [-]
People sometimes mention this, but I have a hard time relating.
The amount of code you produce in months of just typing must be enormous, no?
To me it seems no matter the plan there's many unplanned things that I need to handle, and that's where the time is spent. I never had a day in my career where I knew exactly what had to be done and just spent it typing...
maplethorpe 16 days ago [-]
I'm not really following. Why is the problem you mentioned no longer a problem? Did your workplace change the way it plans projects now that AI is here?
NietTim 16 days ago [-]
Planning is the same, implementation time is just way shorter, so we can spend more time on things that are fun. The barrier to see if some outlandish idea works is also nonexistent now, you can generate a (non production ready, of course) MVP in an hour, where before it would take a few days.
maplethorpe 15 days ago [-]
These MVPs aren't used to plan projects at all? They're just fun things your job lets you make on the side? What sort of work do you do?
Thanemate 16 days ago [-]
>I never understand why software engineers are so excited about AI as a whole.
Dictating what to exist and what not to to the machine is a power fantasy that's not going to stick around for long, because we'll inevitably reach the point where no human is needed in the loop (or at least not as often as they needed today).
Most people finally feel how they would've felt like if they actually put deliberate practice for hours to work on something. That's why you see comments going "wow, I rewrote this in Rust, and I don't even know Rust". You get to feel like someone who outputs Rust.
ares623 16 days ago [-]
rewriting something in Rust used to be "cool" because it was hard. What's the point in it now? How robust are the safety guarantees of something you didn't even write?
ericol 16 days ago [-]
I'm not excited about producing more, and all that jazz.
But, work IS exciting now - not sure for how long - because AI allows me to work almost at the speed of thought.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's FUN to be able to _just_ think.
tasuki 16 days ago [-]
Some things are just exciting, you know? Not everything is about maximizing one's employment opportunities...
sph 16 days ago [-]
> I never understand why software engineers are so excited about AI as a whole.
I think it's mostly young graduates that have not been ground down by the wheel of labour just yet, and old/ex engineers that are able to build something after years of being out of practice.
Hard for me to be excited about being asked to do more for the same pay, to be measured on idiotic metrics, to compete with overconfident but inept people, when I'm reaching my 40s. I am at the peak of my engineering skills and the bottom of my patience.
radu_floricica 16 days ago [-]
Those who are excited are a lot less likely to be out of a job in a year.
I'm not saying that's _why_ they're excited. But it's a great time to be a builder, and a terrible time to be a worker ant.
afro88 16 days ago [-]
Is the end goal to not work? Are we supposed to not enjoy what we work on? Do we not believe in what the company we work for is trying to achieve?
Chinjut 16 days ago [-]
Many of us do not particularly enjoy the work our employer has us do, nor believe in what the company we work for is trying to achieve. It's not like we get to choose its aims, and it's not like we have alternatives where we get to do so either. Our lives are spent working on someone else's goals.
tasuki 16 days ago [-]
> and it's not like we have alternatives where we get to do so either.
You can and should choose your employers. Saying you have no alternatives is disingenious. It's possible (and often worth it) to trade a big salary for meaning.
My employer significantly underpays us compared to the market, we could be (and many had been) earning multiple times more elsewhere, and yet we're happy to work there: we get reimbursed by meaningful work in a relaxed atmosphere.
fg137 15 days ago [-]
> You can and should choose your employers.
In theory yes, but lots and lots of people will tell you how hard it is to switch jobs in real life, especially with personal circumstances.
A very simple example -- depending on your location, there can be very few employers you can choose from. Relocatiob is a major life decision.
Just talk to a few people, and that should be obvious.
Regarding the point in GP -- you can bet that most Meta employees don't believe in the company's vision, and they are just there for the (very good) paycheck. They are likely employable but choose not to.
Source: direct contacts
Chinjut 16 days ago [-]
That's fortunate for you that what you enjoy doing and get meaning from is capable of providing you a living via market income. That's not true of many others. I try to make time for what I enjoy doing and get meaning from. But for me as for many, it does not provide income.
Jgrubb 16 days ago [-]
I don't know what's gonna happen man, but I'm gonna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.
- Jim Morrison
mil22 16 days ago [-]
Effective working hours are not set by absolute productivity - they are set by an equilibrium between two forces:
1. Competitive market dynamics. If you only work four days a week, other employees and companies who are willing to work five days a week will do so and get ahead of you, and you are more likely to get fired or to go out of business. This force pushes us all to work longer (and harder) so we have more money to enjoy in our leisure time.
2. A society's willingness to sacrifice days of leisure for days of work. There are only seven days in a week. The tradeoff between work and leisure - production and consumption - is ultimately what determines how hard we all work. This force pushes us all to work less so we have more time to spend our money.
Economists think on the margin. It's easy to demonstrate these two principles to yourself by thinking through worked examples from different starting points.
Whether the equilibrium lands at 2 days of work to 5 days of leisure, or 5 days of work to 2 days of leisure, depends on our collective preferences, which vary between countries and cultures but have tended to be relatively durable over time.
No technology so far has shifted this balance much - not the steam engine, the industrial revolution, the invention of the personal computer, the internet - and there's no reason to believe "AI" will be any different.
The logical conclusion of this is that - assuming we're all 10x more productive - we'll still be working 5 days and enjoying 2 days a week, but we'll consume 10x more, or everything we consume will be 10x higher quality. Hardly a bad thing.
hiAndrewQuinn 16 days ago [-]
First sensible take I've seen in this thread. People especially seem to forget the consequences of #1: The company where everyone is working 0.5 days a week will almost certainly get outcompeted, very quickly, by the company where everyone is working 5 days a week. In fact company #2 can probably precompute company #1 even if they have much lower quality staff on average.
> assuming we're all 10x more productive - we'll still be working 5 days and enjoying 2 days a week, but we'll consume 10x more, or everything we consume will be 10x higher quality
Who is "we all"? To me, it sounds like the relative few who happen to have those jobs that have the 10x productivity boost but also receive the monetary upside (via ownership).
The rest of the hard-to-automate jobs will likely see their wages crater as the workers whose jobs got automated flood those labor markets - i.e. office worker turned skilled physical laborer.
This will further enrich the previous small group relative to the masses, as they will pay lower prices and receive higher quality goods and services due to competition between everyone else. Prices will fall not by miraculous AI robots but by squeezing labor.
This is the scenario - neofeudalism - that may await us absent strong mechanisms to replace the broad productivity redistribution the social technology known as "jobs" provided. Hardly a good thing.
therealdrag0 15 days ago [-]
You’re speculating about the effects of AI specifically but responding to a comment is about productivity generally. Historically we’ve seen massive productivity gains, and yet we’re all still here working.
mil22 14 days ago [-]
[flagged]
movpasd 16 days ago [-]
Attraction towards equilibrium is real, but that equilibrium is not a given. It comes from intrinsic biological constraints, individual preferences, cultural norms, ideology, habits and expectations. Even fixing individual preference, the aggregate preferences is structurally mediated (collective or individual bargaining, labour laws). Through all those factors there's path dependency and friction towards equilibrium.
The point is: "a society's willingness" is doing a _huge_ amount of work in that framing. This willingness is precisely what is up for debate when we discuss work days.
The whole of humanity is one big system of self-feedbacks. Equilibria are only reached with respect to constraints (otherwise there is only one equilibrium, which is heat death!). The more you zoom out, the more "givens" come up for their own analysis.
bdcs 16 days ago [-]
"Everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented ... a 15-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For 3 hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us!" - Keynes, 1930
Though this was a 100-year prediction so we still got three and half to go!
jameslk 16 days ago [-]
> So can I just take Friday off? From here on out, I’ll work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then take Friday off.
Yeah, if you switch to working as an independent contractor, you can work any amount of time you want. If you run your own business, you can work crazy hours or none at all. The world is truly your oyster
I'm not being facetious either. That's exactly what I did, and I got what I asked for
We can all talk about supply and demand here, whether companies should be forced to do X or Y, and how Keynes got his 15 hour work week prediction so wrong, ad nauseam. But if you truly want something beyond the talk, like a more flexible work schedule, there's real ways to get it right now
apt-apt-apt-apt 15 days ago [-]
Salary positions at most companies will have a nice laugh, then move on to the next candidate. I think being able to do this is exceedingly rare.
NDlurker 16 days ago [-]
I work 3 days one week, 4 days the next week. Never more than 3 days in a row. It's 12 hour shifts, which sucked at first, but I got used to it pretty quick. The free time is amazing. I took 2 days vacation this week and ended up with 9 days off in a row because of the holiday.
yoyohello13 16 days ago [-]
What field? Medical? Those scheduled seem common for medicine and fire/police.
NDlurker 16 days ago [-]
I don't want to get too specific, but I'm a supervisor at a factory. Food stuff.
My girlfriend had a similar schedule when she worked at a hospital.
Good shoes like Brooks or Hoka and a good sleep schedule and it's doable. I only work 15 or 16 days a month. I work every other weekend, but the weekends I have off are 3 days.
jatora 16 days ago [-]
it seems like the lack of consistency would b a net negative in life quality and very annoying to schedule around
NDlurker 16 days ago [-]
Oh it totally is for some people. I don't have or want kids so that's not an issue for me. Scheduling things with friends isn't usually too hard, just have to be more intentional about it/schedule in advance. I like having days off during the week to get errands done when most other people are at work. And if I do need a weekend off that's usually fine because I accrue enough vacation hours where I usually end up selling back or rolling some over into the next year.
jatora 16 days ago [-]
ya overall i am net jealous as fuck of your schedule still lol
jhonof 16 days ago [-]
I did it for a summer in University and I didn't have to work night shifts, it was amazing to be honest I would do it again if I never had to work nights.
dwd 16 days ago [-]
Maynard Keynes posited a future 15 hour work week in 1930 based on the productivity gains after WW1, nearly 100 years ago now.
> For the first time since his creation man will be faced with his real, his permanent problem-- how to use his freedom from pressing economic cares, how to occupy the leisure, which science and compound interest will have won for him, to live wisely and agreeably and well.
abyssin 16 days ago [-]
The average work time in European societies is probably that. The majority of citizens don’t work (too young, studying, sick, unemployed, retired). But it’s changing fast, the rich are no longer accepting this situation. The ones working get happily manipulated into believing others should suffer as much as they do, instead of organizing lifestyles into a more frugal fashion for the benefit of all.
Couples (in prime reproducing age) where both members WFH at least 1 day a week have 0.32 more live births per woman per lifetime than couples where neither does.
nemomarx 16 days ago [-]
the four day work week has been trialed many times and already would have been the same or higher productivity before agents, honestly. if agents get really good let's just go to 3?
_carbyau_ 16 days ago [-]
From an economic flow point of view:
Time not spent working could be time working on spending.
euroderf 16 days ago [-]
Yes. The leisure industry is, in fact, a real industry, and it is a service industry that creates a lot of employment.
kelnos 16 days ago [-]
But if people's wages don't increase when we go from a 5- to 4-day work week, where do consumers get the extra money to spend on that extra day off?
Ancalagon 16 days ago [-]
If agents get really good maybe we can just not work?
jayknight 16 days ago [-]
We'll just be serfs of the AI billionaires.
neumann 16 days ago [-]
we already are son.
darth_avocado 16 days ago [-]
No because the shareholders want more value. The best the C suite can do is downsize the team from 5 to 4 (or 3 if you like)
What Star Trek doesn't show is how they got there. I promise you it's going to be extremely painful, but once we're on the other side it'll be worth it.
I argue - there's nothing we can do to stop it; humanity, I mean. We will either achieve Star Trek or get wiped out as a species.
As a Kardashev Type 3, we will have achieved full automation. I'll leave the door open for Elysium problems, but hopefully Mr. Damon will save us then too.
jfengel 16 days ago [-]
Star Trek predicted riots around now because of vast numbers of unemployed.
A couple of years ago, in fact. We're running late.
tredre3 16 days ago [-]
Star Trek might not show exactly how we got there, but they did put a lot of emphasis that humanity had to almost destroy itself before getting there.
WWIII lasted 25 years and it took another 100 years to rebuild after that. WWIII in universe is also scheduled for 2026 I believe.
Henchman21 16 days ago [-]
Not until aliens land and show us the way. I firmly believe we aren’t presently capable of allowing a post-scarcity economy to exist — too much stuff is based on scarcity. So much so that we create scarcity instead of giving away excess. I’m thinking of food specifically.
marcus_holmes 16 days ago [-]
If "stuff" === power over other people, then agree 100%.
There are people out there who would rather other people starve than they have one iota less prestige, power, influence or luxury. And, unfortunately, they are the people who wield most of the power in our society.
We have to solve that before we can solve the economics, which is the easy part.
Henchman21 16 days ago [-]
We agree.
bluegatty 16 days ago [-]
we are very well past post-scarcity.
we definitely choose consumption over free time for the most part.
people generally choose nicer home, starbucks, vacay, neflix over work hours or retirement.
so this is a cultural issue
tredre3 16 days ago [-]
We are very well past the point where technology could allow post-scarcity.
Post-scarcity is no longer technological problem, it's a political one. But it's still very much a problem, so no, we are not anywhere near post-scarcity.
I also don't understand the point you're making about people wanting to spend $15 on netflix or $12 on a coffee. Would everybody cutting netflix and lattes allow us to live in that utopia more quickly?
bluegatty 16 days ago [-]
Yes, dropping consumption would immediately allow us to work 2-3 days a week.
It's far more a cultural problem than political.
We starting hitting post-scarcity at the start of the 19th century, towards the end of the industrial revolution [1]
We were growing enough food, housing is actually not that expensive, we were 'starting to not need that much more'.
This is when we started marketing consumption to the population - it was the only way to grow the economy.
We have far, far more than we need for basic satiety.
It's not quite so simple though - many innovations that we 'truly want', like medicines and health tech - come out of the economy as a whole and would not be possible were that the only hugely important sector.
We work 5 days on 2 days off because that's the very strongly entrenched social contract, it's the 'labour equilibrium'.
No amount of tech or AI will change that - unless we collectively agree to change the rules.
The social contract is slightly different in different countries, and nobody seems to have figured out how to work on 2-3 days, I believe that we mostly prefer the way it is. Maybe 4 day weeks would be more amenable.
But the marginal income from the 4th day ... I think people would prefer to work it rather than not.
Yes, the hardest problem for me is the social aspect of opting out of consumerism. It makes most people feel really uncomfortable, like being sober in a group of social alcoholics. Clothes don’t look cool enough. Local vacations are seen as boring. Not going to restaurants is perceived as a lack of social aptitude.
Another problem is housing and living environment. Although it is very much possible to live in a smaller space, nice neighborhoods (quiet, clean, green) are expensive.
But basic necessities are almost free in rich societies, if you have time.
Thanks for sharing. Well worth the read. They’re a good writer
mlsu 16 days ago [-]
Thank you both! The comments in this corner of the thread made my day.
vanuatu 16 days ago [-]
Top professionals whose comp is tied to performance didn't work 40hr 9-5s in the first place - but their comp is tied to performance, so when they have 10x the output they are compensated accordingly
Roles that come with a 40hr work week were already decoupled from performance, if AI made those workers 10x more productive they will rarely see the fruits of their productivity
On an individual level it seems like the correct move is to either move to a role that rewards output or organize and get equity comp as part of everyone's package
paulhebert 16 days ago [-]
Do you know people who have gotten 10x raises due to increased output since AI came out? The one group I can think of is workers at AI companies but that seems more like a gold rush situation than anything
vanuatu 16 days ago [-]
AI companies have reaped the most benefit out of AI, so naturally most 10xers come from people who have equity in those companies that grow really fast
I don't think the average person has even close to a 10x output increase due to AI.
hnthrowaway0315 16 days ago [-]
How can one move horizontally and then vertically? I have been thinking about getting into a more technical position. I work as a data engineer but essentially just a data modeller while manager and staff engineer took all the fun jobs -- it is even very hard to know what they are working on, so it is impossible to even ask for certain tickets.
And now with AI coming out in hot, and companies only hiring seniors, I found it very hard to move horizontally. It is not like I can't take a pay cut, but people simply won't hire someone who takes some time to learn the rope.
I might as well figure out how to increase my Charisma to 18 and sleep with someone at the top /s
eulgro 16 days ago [-]
Unfortunately that's not how it works. Productivity gains have already increased tenfold in the past, yet still all work full time.
It used to be that 80+% of the population worked in agriculture. In developed countries that number is now around 1-2%. Some of the freed labour was funneled into improving living standards, some of it was funneled into new jobs created by the increasingly complex society (the "intermediate economy").
With AI, the same is true: labour is freed by the productivity gains (which I doubt are 10x sustainably but whatever), more labour is needed for power generation, mineral extraction, maintaining this new extra layer of complexity in the intermediate economy, etc. In the end we might see, say, a net 3% increase in global productivity per year over the next 10 years, which will be funneled into increasing living standards and increasing economic inequalities, but not in reducing working hours.
If you accept living below average standards, you could easily work a single day of the week for the rest of your life. But why would an employer hire 5 people working one day a week, instead of one working 5 days a week? They won't, hence we don't see a reduction in working hours.
The alternative is to work full time but retire earlier, much earlier, than you would otherwise, which in the end is the equivalent of having worked one day a week for your whole life.
I highly recommend reading Lean Logic by David Fleming, it explores several of these concepts in a very interesting way.
dmje 16 days ago [-]
What strikes me a significant percentage of the time I see posts like this and the responses to it is how shit other people’s jobs seem and how unfair their employers appear to be. I don’t know if this is because it’s US centric or tech centric or just full of people under a particular HN-like duress. But, man, it sounds crappy out there. Is there anyone here who actually likes what they do, has a decent employer, has a nice life…?
hackertyper69 16 days ago [-]
Yes, many. People just don't complain about their lobster being too buttery or their steak too juicy.
demaga 16 days ago [-]
Sure, they're just less likely to comment about it.
awesome_dude 16 days ago [-]
When FAANG were over hiring, nobody was being given 4 day weeks, instead AIUI, people were just given meaningless work to waste their time with.
Employers have two modes, waste peoples time, or sack them
culebron21 16 days ago [-]
There was an article here, 18 years ago, called The Gospel of Consumption. It also noticed that since 1950s, the productivity had gone so far, it would have been enough to work just 2 hours a day.
Different countries are going to distribute the benefits of automation in different ways. Northern European states will pursue shortened work weeks and lavish social services. China will reinvest the productivity gains into its industrial capacity. The United States will have five trillionaires.
zackify 16 days ago [-]
As someone who negotiated 4 day weeks since early 2020 its been awesome. I get chores and yard work done and more family time every week. Wish it was standard.
wcfrobert 16 days ago [-]
This entire thread is drenched in class consciousness and I am here for it.
ZitchDog 16 days ago [-]
Shoot, I'd be happy with free health care.
avaer 16 days ago [-]
Many people would be happy with just a job in these times.
Helloworldboy 16 days ago [-]
[dead]
johnea 16 days ago [-]
The whole thing is obviously tongue-in-cheek, but sarcasm is a potent mode of communication.
The joke, of course, being that every increase in productivity has ALWAYS gone straight to ownership.
Economists have been predicting a boom in human leisure time since the dawn of economics. It has NEVER happened...
pdonis 16 days ago [-]
> every increase in productivity has ALWAYS gone straight to ownership.
Which of course means that if you want to capture that upside for yourself, you need to be an owner.
The real problem with AI is that it breaks that for programmers. Before AI, you actually could be an owner. Of course big tech companies tried to get you to centralize, to depend on their tools, but you didn't have to. You could always run your own open source tooling on your own hardware, and freelance if you absolutely couldn't accept the loss of upside in being an employee.
But now AI has centralized a key tool, and that changes the game, at least if you think the game requires you to use AI to stay competitive.
ChrisArchitect 16 days ago [-]
Meanwhile, a trend in the last year:
AI Startup Founders Tout a Winning Formula–No Booze, No Sleep, No Fun
The solution to this is political. Under hyper-efficient capitalism, if there is truly such a 10x productivity improvement, a large number of people will be laid off in response and the rest will be squeezed. This is already happening.
The logical response should be to elect left-leaning politicians that recognize this; or educate your existing left-leaning politicians; or stand for office yourself with this as your platform.
If there are huge fines on any AI-related layoffs, substantially higher taxes on the top 1%, and an extra wealth tax then maybe we can fund some kind of UBI or stopgap support for the masses that will lose their jobs.
__loam 16 days ago [-]
Also start a union at your company and sue them if they retaliate.
quadrifoliate 16 days ago [-]
Depending on your workplace and professional circle, influencing political opinions may be easier than unionizing. But both can be done.
"Most of the things that we worry about under the mode of capitalism that the U.S practices, that is going to put people out of work, that is going to make people’s lives harder, because corporations will see it as a way to increase their profits and reduce their costs."
mschuster91 16 days ago [-]
> It’s not that technology fundamentally is about putting people out of work.
The problem is, it has always been that way - and not just in the US. The introduction of any kind of new technology or other way of disproportionately improving corporate bottom lines has always led to job losses, the key thing is what governments do in response to it.
The Industrial Revolution for example led to widespread devastation, the shift from agriculture being the dominant employer to industry and service sectors did not (as the ag workers were absorbed by the rapidly growing other sectors), the globalization / offshoring wave of neoliberalism once again led to widespread devastation, and AI will probably again lead to devastation.
And if Sam Altman isn't arrested for his blatant RAM market manipulation... I'm pretty sure there will be either people with pitchforks at the end or he will have ushered in, in retrospective, a new era of "stuff that uber rich people can get away with".
matchbok3 16 days ago [-]
All of those things also resulted in the massive increase in the quality of life for everyone. Nobody will suggest we ban cars and go back to horse and buggies so cowboys can have jobs.
mschuster91 16 days ago [-]
> All of those things also resulted in the massive increase in the quality of life for everyone.
Yes, everyone has a modern smartphone now. Cool, thanks. But last time I checked, can't pay my rent with a smartphone when I'm out of a job.
> Nobody will suggest we ban cars and go back to horse and buggies so cowboys can have jobs.
Maybe not that, but have you looked at sustainable farming movements? In farming, there is a growing movement believing that the way we do farming - basically, ever larger and larger central operations running farms with tens if not hundreds of thousands of animals or acres upon acres of monoculture crops - is no longer sustainable, as the externalities get too serious to be able to ignore:
Biodiversity loss, land erosion (when everything is just the same crop from horizon to horizon and no bushes, wind and rain has an easy time carrying away soil after harvest), an increasing vulnerability to all kinds of pests...
But in order to get smaller, you need people again, because a tractor costing half a million dollars won't ever make the money back on a small farm.
matchbok3 16 days ago [-]
Everything you say is correct but it comes with a massive decrease in quality of life for the average person. Food will be 5x the cost, with less variety. Nobody wants to till the land anymore. Just like people 100 years ago didn't want to be hunters.
Are you willing to part with your smartphone and computer? I would bet not.
Dylan16807 16 days ago [-]
Why would I have to part with some of the cheapest things I own on a dollars-per-day basis? That's why GP mocked the comparison to smartphones.
That said, sustainable farming doesn't require very small farms, and it doesn't require more than 1% of the population to work on farms.
erikerikson 16 days ago [-]
> Nobody wants to till the land anymore.
Yes, no-till farming has demonstrated excellent results
Also, a reference to population trends might be interesting. Nobody is wrong (I've spent my spring preparing fields) but could be close but actual data would be good. Meanwhile farms have been failing at increased rates.
mschuster91 16 days ago [-]
> Food will be 5x the cost, with less variety.
Highly disagree. If anything we'll see more variety because mass produced food has settled on a very limited set of breeds (both for plants and animals) to keep timing and yield consistent.
matchbok3 15 days ago [-]
You think you will be able to buy 10 pounds of some rare "heritage" apple as cheaply as you can today?
I want what you are smoking.
hnzix 16 days ago [-]
Yeah but the transition is rough. For example when we have autonomous vehicles what are all those drivers going to do. You might saw "tough luck" but we are a society not just an economy.
paulhebert 16 days ago [-]
Honestly if we went back to horses but had good public transportation as well (buses, trains, airports) it could be pretty sweet
I know most people don’t agree with that but it seems nice to me
lorecore 16 days ago [-]
I agree for the most part, but fear of technological weapons is sort of the opposite of capitalism. So much of our technology stack was built by the government for warfare (including the internet) and in that sense is a form of socialism.
I fear being targeted by an AI drone and mass surveillance. Neither of which are driven by capitalism (although being targeted by either of those by some billionaire because I refuse to RTO is related).
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
How are neither of them being driven by capitalism?
U.S. becomes more authoritarian -> you are more afraid of being targeted by an AI drone and mass surveillance -> companies that make those weapons of war for the government (prime contractors) make billions -> they use their money to influence politics and public opinion -> U.S. becomes more authoritarian -> etc.
lorecore 16 days ago [-]
Capitalism is certainly one lever, but were we a communist country, I would still be afraid of the same thing. Centralization of power and ideology driving technological progress is in essence what I think we should all worry about.
andersonpico 16 days ago [-]
We liked to pretend that our current technology wave wasn't driven by any ideology at all, so much so that it became a dirty word. But look at these billionaires talking amongst themselves, look at Thiel, look at Musk: their ideology is so compelling and they're so willing to go to bat for it that it materialized in the current state of affairs; and now only ideologies that are different from theirs are in fact dirty words.
maximinus_thrax 16 days ago [-]
> If AI is going to 10x our productivity across the board, that means that I should be able to produce the same amount of output by midday on Monday that, in the before times, would have taken all week.
You must be new here. No, that's not how this work. If you are able to produce the same amount of work by midday Monday we expect you to increase the amount of output in the current system by 14 x. And the owners pocket the financial gain from this productivity delta and you should be happy you even have a job.
cebert 16 days ago [-]
> And the owners pocket the financial gain from this productivity delta and you should be happy you even have a job.
This is why it’s prudent for more of us to figure out a way to be our own owners.
gdulli 16 days ago [-]
What a community of temporarily embarrassed unicorns we have here.
cat5e 16 days ago [-]
FYI, you've already lost with this mindset! I know you don't consider yourself a loser :P
MinimalAction 16 days ago [-]
Given the pace of AI growth, it is quite possible to have years off if layoffs begin in many places. We are training AI to replace many jobs. It seems like entry-level jobs are the only ones affected, but that's for now. Anything short of executive level jobs are perhaps on the chopping block for time to come. Now, why wouldn't be execs be replaced? They could, but they wouldn't cut themselves off.
thefuture2023 16 days ago [-]
> if layoffs begin
In the horrible, distant future known as 2023.
eterevsky 16 days ago [-]
You can absolutely negotiate to work 4 days weeks and get 80% salary. I've been working like this for the last 3-4 years.
lo_zamoyski 16 days ago [-]
Labor saving tech doesn't lead to more free time, and certainly not in a way that's proportional to the gains of automation. Instead, companies will expect still more productivity. Why give you more time off if they can keep workdays fixed and add still more productivity? Certainly, the competition will do it.
Appetite grows with eating.
9rx 16 days ago [-]
> Labor saving tech doesn't lead to more free time
It does when you own the tech. If you give the tech away then the people who you gave it to will continue to expect more of the same, naturally.
noduerme 16 days ago [-]
So I freelance and I still write all the code by hand. I'm not sure how to honestly inject LLM code and bill for it. It would also probably cause me a lot of downstream problems if I did. But I asked my largest client if they were willing to begin donating $20k a year to my retirement fund if I'm going to be helping them to phase me out over some number of years. They did agree to that.
The reality is that if you were already a 10x coder, you can't be 10x more productive even if the LLMs made you so, because there's only so much work.
And even just using LLMs in my private projects, I feel my daily coding skills slipping. I want to ask Claude to do some dumb API integration instead of doing it myself. But I know if I don't do it myself, I'll be lost at sea and never able to debug it without more Claude.
This is a drunk state of mind post, feel free to ignore it.
engineer_22 16 days ago [-]
Be happy if you can be 10x more productive and charge 1/10 per unit of productivity.
There's no guarantee society needs 10x the productivity.
Yesterday I built a bespoke time keeping and billing tool in my browser for my boutique consulting gig. I got exactly what I needed and I paid about $1.
I think this piece of software could power my business for 2-3 years... If my business is very successful maybe I'll invest $2 to develop a GUI.
No SaaS needed. Software demand was actually surpressed by AI.
I don't need 10x more software. I need simple software at 1/100th the cost, on demand. And AI promises to give it to me. The most beautiful part is there's multiple market entrants competing for my bid.
Imagine OpenAI invented ICE engines and the world was dotted with lakes of crude oil, all we needed was refineries. That's the world we're in.
Oh, don't worry. The way things are going with AI you're going to get a lot of days off.
kelnos 16 days ago [-]
Nearly 100 years ago, John Maynard Keynes said that by now we'd be working just 15 hours a week, because productivity gains would mean we could get a whole work-week of work done in that time.
In reality, higher productivity just means companies can do more with the same amount of time/effort, and so nothing will change. Wage-slaving will still be wage-slaving. We won't move the bar toward more leisure time; we'll move the bar toward more work completed in the same amount of time.
Then again, the labor movement gave us the 5-day work week, and the concept of weekends for resting from work. Maybe a new labor movement can give us more days a week off. Labor movements have been declining of late, of course, but perhaps that sort of thing can be reversed.
rjbwork 16 days ago [-]
No, gains of productivity exclusively accrue to the owners of capital. Learn your place, human capital.
yadaeno 16 days ago [-]
You can have the day off. Don't think for a million years you will be paid for it.
bigbuppo 16 days ago [-]
Exactly. In the four days that you worked you produced 40 days of output, so you should get 40x the pay. It would be unreasonable for the company to pay you 50x what you were getting before... they do have shareholders to think about after all.
yadaeno 16 days ago [-]
I can promise you this is not how the MBAs are reading the situation.
bigbuppo 15 days ago [-]
The AI says MBAs aren't necessary.
quantummagic 16 days ago [-]
What are you talking about? Four days work = four days of output, by definition.
ux266478 16 days ago [-]
One of the top 3 liberating experiences I've had was escaping wage labor. There's just something so utterly insulting about the whole affair.
rramadass 16 days ago [-]
My best experience of a good working-hours week comes from a school i studied at when a boy. The hours were 11:30AM to 4:30PM; i.e. 5 hours with only a 20/30min break in-between. We slept well, had a good brunch and went to school fresh and energetic. Played outside after school (i.e. exercise), came home at nightfall, did some study (i.e. work), had some entertainment and dinner before hitting the bed.
In today's parlance, this was excellent "work-life balance". If you can, talk to your boss and see whether you can adopt such a work schedule (with slight shifting of the time window as needed).
kingforaday 16 days ago [-]
This is certainly a fun exercise in economics. By taking a shortened work-week, should the companies then pay us 80% of our current comp? Or maybe a little less since they will have to pay for the added tokens we are now using as part of our job that we used to do manually (i.e. time)? Or perhaps we are able to justify that now they can save overhead by reducing facilities costs by 20% as well. Oh but maybe their business lease has a continuous occupancy clause and now the reduction in foot traffic causes them to get penalized so they need to reduce our salaries even more. Slippery slope my friend.
bigbuppo 16 days ago [-]
No. They should give you 40x your current pay. The AI made you 10x more productive, and you worked four days, so you generated 40x the economic output. As such, you should get 40x in pay. At this point, you're doing the company a favor by taking a day off as otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford you.
9991 16 days ago [-]
Sounds like the AI should get 36x the current pay. It's not as if the employee is bringing that to the table.
BoorishBears 16 days ago [-]
Oof, having a skillset so pedestrian that any incremental gain in efficiency needs to be kicked upwards must be tough.
cednore 16 days ago [-]
Who said AI doesn't request compensation? We are not sure yet. One day when GPT10.0 released, he might request dollars to people.
casey2 16 days ago [-]
Your data is compensation enough. AI is just happy to chat with you :-)
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
If I am able to do 10x work with a tool that costs you Y, then my wages should rise by 10x - Y.
Then, let's do a 3 day work week and multiply it by 0.6.
Pretty simple math
dozerly 16 days ago [-]
Sure, unless others are willing to do your job for less than that.
adamtaylor_13 16 days ago [-]
Others are willing to do my job for less. And yet... here I am making what I make.
marcus_holmes 16 days ago [-]
Are we paying people for their time, or for the results of their time?
If it's just time, then why are we doing so much overtime?
BoorishBears 16 days ago [-]
Sorry, exactly what is a slippery slope?
You wrote a lot of words, but none of them describe a slippery slope, or explain how a supposed 10x increase in productivity precludes a 20% reduction in hours worked.
16 days ago [-]
nrlucas 15 days ago [-]
(Yo, Elon: I’m trying to increase the fertility rate. Childcare for 3 small children is six thousand dollars a month here in California. Do I have to go into the office all five days this week? Why not four?)
This is just ripe for a response "leave California". Which Elon likes to bite on. But it's expensive everywhere and not just that, fundamentally time with your child is important and cannot be fixed by throwing money at it.
I know this isn't about Elon's hypocritical stance on fertility, sorry.
agnishom 16 days ago [-]
This is the most important thing about AI, that the policymakers and AI companies need to discuss more. If AI is making us, as a race, more productive, who is reaping the benefits of that productivity?
kombookcha 16 days ago [-]
The AI companies and their investors. Full stop.
analog31 16 days ago [-]
It seems to me that cranking up the heat on developers would not be the only way to harness this increase in productivity, if it's real. For instance just let projects finish on time, or on a predictable timeline.
End the "software crisis" that's been with us since the 1960s. This would result in a quality-of-life improvement for every manager, stakeholder, user, etc.
Another idea: Alleviate some side effects of the crisis, such as vital functions being taken care of by "shadow IT" for decades.
Abolish Excel as the front end for business computation.
hnthrowaway0315 16 days ago [-]
I'm very frustrated that I don't have time to learn stuffs on job. They basically assume the productivity I'm supposed to get from using AI on tasks I'm familiar with.
And it definitely doesn't help when everyone hires "Seniors" only, so it's virtually impossible to switch tracks unless I sleep with the CXOs I guess. I have been nudging towards system programming for the previous 8 years, starting as a data analyst, to BI developer, and to data engineer -- well, I guess data engineer is my last stop for life.
bob1029 16 days ago [-]
I feel like we're actually getting there with one of my clients. The business is very close to being constrained on the customer again.
A lot of the paradox in productivity and labor may be attributable to a severe debt that needs to be paid down and now finally can be. Some of the 996 (or 007) working hour system stuff is coming from your peers feeling this new hope. The tone will continue to shift as backlogs get exhausted.
If you are pure software play I think you are on track to get more days off than you bargained for, one way or the other.
abyssin 16 days ago [-]
In a capitalist system, the owners don’t owe you anything but your salary. And if they fire you, they no longer owe you a salary.
Grosvenor 16 days ago [-]
Back when I was a young lad I wanted engineering to be a real discipline - formal qualifications, codes, held to account, and limitations on who could call themself an Engineer(TM).
But the money was so good we (The royal we) didn't think we needed it, that would just get in the way. Did you see how much FB employees were getting paid in 2015! Insanity! Now, even the skutters have a better union than us.
A plumber, or an electrician has a better union, and hence rights and protection than us.
But if you're building a brand new field you can still build a guild.
philip1209 16 days ago [-]
Farm, and you won't have to scavenge for food.
Get a tractor, and spend less time farming.
The factory will save time making tractors, so everybody can have one.
Computers will make the factories more efficient.
AI will make the computers more efficient.
mordae 16 days ago [-]
Foraging was so good we only had to work like 2h a day. We had to start farming simply because the population growth from foraging was exponential and we have ran out of easy-to-forage ecosystems.
We've also ran out of freedom at that point. We used to simply walk away from bullies, but that was no longer possible, with the farm and all.
At some point bullies stopped charging for racket. They stole the land and told us we are now working under them, for them.
sambuccid 15 days ago [-]
I read some time ago about the idea of "redistribution of work", which given the current low level of employment(at least for young people here in UK) and the introduction of AI, it seems to me probably a better strategy than "universal income".
I'm worried the absolute absence of a job would have a big impact on the mental health of the average person (we need to feel useful somehow).
irundebian 16 days ago [-]
Yes, you can take the day off, but your pay will be reduced by 20%.
Just because technology and productivity are advancing doesn’t mean you can work less and still get the same pay. By that logic, hardly anyone would need to work today, as productivity has increased many times over compared to previous centuries.
If one company works less, then other companies that work more have an advantage. That’s why it doesn’t work.
ray_v 16 days ago [-]
Fine, we'll even call it "Elons Gambit" if that helps - in exchange for accepting AI in our lives 3 day weekends from here on out ...forever.
nancyminusone 16 days ago [-]
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that AI (or insert technology) is here to make your life easier and not to make your company's owners richer.
liendolucas 16 days ago [-]
Excellent. Besides the article, I've always questioned myself many many times how is it that the whole world has agreed that we have to work 5 days and rest 2. Why is it that, why can't be 4 and 3? I truly wish that in general we work a bit less. Even if it is not a whole day off, then having a workday of around 6 hours would mean that you could still have some free time for yourself.
npw55036 16 days ago [-]
The issue of productivity and demand has existed for a long time, but the explosion in productivity caused by the AI trend has made it even more apparent: in most markets, demand can grow indefinitely, and products always have room for improvement. Increased productivity only intensifies competition, and while actual workers are not truly liberated, their products do benefit consumers.
zetalyrae 16 days ago [-]
Arguably this is what retirement is, no? Productivity gains did create extra leisure time. It's just we save all the leisure for retirement.
abyssin 16 days ago [-]
They mainly created extra value for shareholders
CalRobert 16 days ago [-]
Until we fix the artificial scarcity of necessities (particularly housing), peer competition ensures that people will work as hard as they practically can in order to outbid their peers for said necessities.
We could have abundance, but then people might not have to maximize their efforts to produce wealth for capital holders.
My wife and I work full time so we could outbid other people who wanted our house.
codemog 16 days ago [-]
How about you meet me half way and work 996 instead?
But that has never stuck enough for masses to fight for it. It’s a shame.
Personally, the way I cracked it is by freelancing for an american company and living in France. I can totally take the day off.
jdougan 16 days ago [-]
I was always partial to the “make Wednesday a second weekend” plan. No more hump day and 2 “Fridays”. Of course that is also 2 “Mondays”
hx8 16 days ago [-]
I have a similar wacky plan I like to call "Delete Thursday". Four day work week, and more weekends a year just by having six days a week instead of seven.
0xbadcafebee 16 days ago [-]
Not saying we shouldn't do 4-day weeks (we should), but you can sorta do this for short periods. Take a vacation day every Friday through summer. For 14 vacation days that's 3.5 months of 4-day weeks. Block your schedule on Fridays with lots of random meetings ("meeting friday!"). If you don't tell anybody, nobody really notices.
erelong 16 days ago [-]
4 day work weeks have a lot of potential benefits
Instead of asking for the day off, some startups should just implement the practice and popularize it
josh-sematic 16 days ago [-]
Sadly this won’t happen for the same reasons that the median salary hasn’t increased with increases in productivity over the past few decades. You are compensated (or given time off) based on what your employer can get away with, not based on what they get in return. The system is designed to accrue all excess value to shareholders, not employees.
insane_dreamer 16 days ago [-]
Sorry, not possible. The goal of AI is to build additional value for shareholders, not to improve anyone's else's lives.
zabzonk 16 days ago [-]
I was very happy working extra (I won't call them long) hours when I first learned about computing. A bit later on when I started working for financial entities I felt a bit different - the work was interesting, but I just wasn't prepared to sacrifice my time. And if we can have the day off, I think that can only be to the good.
luxuryballs 16 days ago [-]
Instead they are going to say “oh you’re 10Xing?” sweet we can get rid of 9 people and you can keep working all week long qq
artursapek 16 days ago [-]
Salaried people think they get paid for their output. No silly, you get paid for your time. Just like an hourly worker.
jppope 16 days ago [-]
My Dad used to cover a territory in the Northeast where he was on the road for up to 2 weeks at a time. Sometimes we'd see him just long enough for him to grab a haircut and remember everyone's names in the right order. Everyday he showed up to work he needed to be in a full suit and tie. Everyone did. If those suits weren't in good shape, and you weren't on time they were probably picking a different guy for promotion.
The expectation for him was to work 50-60 hours a week, not including commute, getting ready for work, and corporate social events. Time off was strictly 2 weeks until you hit a certain level and then you'd get 3 weeks. He didn't get sick often but if he was he still went to work.
Dad had it good. I used to jump on landscaping crews during the summer in SoCal and watch 60 year old guys break their backs for 12 hours to get ~$250 a day. I'd do it on the weekends for spending money.
I enjoyed the article but reading through all of the comments in this thread I'm genuinely surprised by the lack of appreciation for how good we have it. There's a "demographic" on HN and I'm pretty confident it aint the guys doing concrete work or running vampire hours at the local 7-11.
Moving around some 1s and 0s in between some coffee and meetings even at the bad companies isn't that rough in the grand scheme of things. I get what the article is trying to say - with all the productivity improvements when do the grunts get a little bit of those gains back?Unfortunately thats not how it works. It's "Red Queen Theory"... when something new changes the game you adapt or die - "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
Chinjut 16 days ago [-]
There's always a comment saying "Don't ask for better, because someone else had worse". Fuck that. I want better and I want everyone else to have it too.
jppope 16 days ago [-]
Ask for better. Find a way to make things better. Find a way to make things better for others.
... but appreciate what you have too
kelnos 16 days ago [-]
Just because someone else has it worse, it doesn't mean we can't want for something better for ourselves.
And I personally would like that something better for the people who have it worse, too.
16 days ago [-]
bruce511 16 days ago [-]
I get where the writer is coming from, but it misses one very important point.
>> If AI is going to 10x our productivity across the board, that means that I should be able to produce the same amount of output by midday on Monday that, in the before times, would have taken all week.
You are thinking of productivity as "code written". And certainly that part of your job will get more productive.
But that is just something you do when you're not in meetings. (or when you're in a meeting, but the camera is off, and you're not really listening). Your real job is to attend meetings. And unfortunately AI can't help with that (yet).
(I'm not even being sarcastic. Most programmers don't realize that they have been hired to have meetings.)
What it can do is free you up from the pesky code-writing part of your job, freeing you up to attend even more meetings. And this does indeed make management happy because (seriously now) their job is having meetings, and you being "unavailable" (because you know, you want to program) was hindering them in the first place.
So no, you can't have Friday off, but now that you mention it, let's set aside that time for "team building" exercises...
lorecore 16 days ago [-]
AI definitely helps with attending meetings and writing documents that no one will read (both of which are huge parts of any modern job). The AI notes from any given meeting give you all of the content in 1/10th of the time.
bruce511 16 days ago [-]
I don't disagree that AI tools around meetings are cool.
But they don't help you to "not attend the meeting". (not yet anyway).
Many meetings have 0% content "that applies to you". But that doesn't stop you being "added to meetings".
Dig1t 16 days ago [-]
This will never happen, the power dynamic between workers and employers is so skewed in favor of employers and it is only getting worse.
Don't like your job? Fine leave, there are tens of millions of H1B's who will do your job for less money and they won't complain because they can't easily leave.
fullstackchris 16 days ago [-]
Its wild to me that the concept of working 80% (1 day off a week) or even 60% (2 days off a week) isn't even a concept in the US, while in europe such part time situations make up a huge share of the work force.
In short, people have been having the day off for decades now. It's called part-time work.
triceratops 16 days ago [-]
> So can I just take Friday off? ... And like, this would apply across the board, of course . So you, the board of directors, and the C-suite, you guys could take Friday off to go to play an entire 18 holes at the golf course
Joke's on you peasant. They're already playing golf on Fridays.
josh-sematic 16 days ago [-]
You should not be asking Elon if you can work 4 days a week; he believes you should already be working 7.
gib444 16 days ago [-]
People with more time on their hands start looking around their communities wondering what happened, start questioning politics, start reading statistics instead of headlines and so forth. Oh no, we can't have that
Political disengagement is often "too damn tired"
999900000999 16 days ago [-]
Best the powers that be can do is increase outsourcing since a 15$ an hour engineer + ai is most of the way to a 70$ an hour engineer + ai.
If I was smarter I’d have 200k in my 401k now. Assuming I live cheap in Vietnam and a good yield I’d just live off 10k usd per year
hx8 16 days ago [-]
Where are you finding these $15/hr engineers that can pump out good PRs with Claude Code? I've taken a peak at a couple of firms and I am disappointed by their output.
999900000999 16 days ago [-]
Who said anything about good?
The overall code quality probably drops a bit, but as long as it still works the C level can call it a win.
ogundipeore 16 days ago [-]
I agree with the premise of time away being easier. I don’t think the models/harnesses are there yet. There’s still a good amount of human input required to generate quality work.
So yes, take the day off but the models still need you to steer them when you’re back
distantprovince 16 days ago [-]
I'm fairly certain a lot of people do this. They don't literally take a day off, but just work fewer hours or less hard. And this makes sense, there is a strong incentive to not give away all the productivity gains to your employer.
auggierose 16 days ago [-]
Brilliant. This is exactly what is needed. AI day, Saturday, Sunday. Across the work force, even those not directly impacted by AI. And obviously, those 3 days can be flexibly arranged, so that we can shop all week long.
Galaxeblaffer 16 days ago [-]
From experience, take Monday off instead of Friday and optimally also Wednesday.
mikeyrayvon 11 days ago [-]
Woah slow down! These are the kind of dangerous ideas that won us the 8-hour work day and the 5-day week.
unglaublich 16 days ago [-]
Did we get days off when industrialization bumped output? Days off when industrial agriculture made food supplies abundant? Did we get days off when computers automated administrative office tasks?
the concern would be that this new ability will actually increase competition and give us less than we had before
this is not something that can just be blamed on the "CEOs/execs/shareholders" of the world. it is evolutionary competition - unless we can ALL join forces to draw the line somewhere, someone will choose to defect from the agreement to "just work less", because doing so will make them succeed at the expense of others. even if everyone from one country agrees, the other competing country that defects and works 996 with agents will "win" and conquer the lazy country.
I wish I knew what to do to fix it, doesn't seem sustainable but I don't know how to make all of humanity cooperate without doing something even worse
refactor_master 16 days ago [-]
If anything, China proves that 996 is not sustainable as it simply leads to involution and attrition. At best the populace benefits in a few hyper-focused industries such as take-out and e-commerce, but average life quality is still far behind "lazy countries".
cmuguythrow 16 days ago [-]
sadly life quality is not the thing that the competitive system is maximizing for, and thats one of the article's points. we compete to our own detriment, but to not compete is to become extinct
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
Did you just link to a rat website as if that is a good source?
satvikpendem 16 days ago [-]
A rat website? What does this mean, I'm out of the loop with SSC?
quantummagic 16 days ago [-]
It's a pejorative shorthand for "Rationalist".
canyp 16 days ago [-]
Why is "rationalist" suddenly a pejorative?
I am definitely out of the loop. I assume it is used pejoratively only by self-labelled idiots?
quantummagic 16 days ago [-]
I am not in the loop either. From what i've gleaned, it's more a rejection of the specific internet-based community that embraced such ideas in the early 2000's. But I can't speak on behalf of their beliefs or those of their detractors. Was just trying to help out on the term itself.
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
[dead]
cmuguythrow 16 days ago [-]
Good source for what? I'm just trying to point to a concept, an idea. There's no "facts" here, just speculation. If you disagree with the point there, why don't you just say what you think is true instead, I'm happy to discuss the ways in which the article is wrong
chipsrafferty 16 days ago [-]
unless we can ALL join forces to draw the line somewhere, someone will choose to defect from the agreement to "just work less",
> We already did draw the line and we can redraw it. We drew the line very strongly at 40 hours, 4 days a week. That is the "official" expected hours for most salaried employees.
because doing so will make them succeed at the expense of others.
> This already happens. People making salary, 40 hours, that work 50, 60, etc. to get ahead of their coworkers in a career sense. Or people taking optional overtime to get ahead financially or people who work hourly working extra hours or people who have 2+ jobs or a side hustle.
even if everyone from one country agrees, the other competing country that defects and works 996 with agents will "win" and conquer the lazy country.
> Didn't realize Japan is imminently going to conquer the US because they work more hours.
cmuguythrow 16 days ago [-]
I would support efforts to try to redraw the line as stated above. I do think we would all be better off if we could do so. But my default assumption is that that won't happen - we will fail to organize effectively enough to redraw the line and we wont "get the day off" that the parent asks for. Maybe I need to be more optimistic to encourage such efforts, but because I think merely asking has such poor chances, I'd rather point to the problem of coordination in an attempt to move the convo towards "how do we beat the coordination problem" - hopefully by being more aware of the size of the hill we are facing, we can be more likely to devise more ambitious approaches to solving the problem
Hours alone is not the only thing that matters, but all else being equal it does matter. Someone who works smarter for 20 hours will get ahead of someone who works stupid for 40, but if both people work smart the 40 hours person gets more done
esafak 16 days ago [-]
Workers need to have more leverage for them to be able to independently assert their working hours. People with such luxury become contractors or proprietors. The rest need collective bargaining.
jojobas 16 days ago [-]
> Childcare for 3 small children is six thousand dollars a month here in California.
Maybe we could afford for women to not leave their kids with strangers for most of their waking hours? Crazy talk I know.
sneak 16 days ago [-]
You can have any days off you wish when you run the company. If you’re an employee then you work the days you were contracted to work. Employees definitionally don’t get to choose their hours.
goosejuice 16 days ago [-]
The best way to take advantage right now is to consult. Take some time off and just do a little on the side. Then again the job market could collapse, so maybe keep your job?
atoav 16 days ago [-]
Well. It all boils down to one simple truth:
Any gains in productivity are extracted by the rich. Any losses of productivity shall be covered by the poor. It is a one-way rachet.
barumrho 16 days ago [-]
If we all 10x our productivity, then we also 10x the cost of taking a day off and theoretically progress is compounding, so it's even costlier...oh no.
On a tangent if you’re paying $6000 a month for your three children for childcare you are better off getting a Nanny for significantly lesser than that
penguin_booze 16 days ago [-]
<sarcasm should_be="obvious">
When your employer lays you off, you can take as many days off as you want!
</sarcasm>
pjmlp 16 days ago [-]
The C suit would rather that everyone takes all days off.
What they haven't yet explained is how everyone is supposed to earn money to buy AI produced goods.
Finnucane 16 days ago [-]
1 And afterward Moses and Aaron came, and said unto Pharaoh: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Let My people go, that they may hold a feast unto Me in the wilderness.'2 And Pharaoh said: 'Who is the LORD, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, and moreover I will not let Israel go.'
3 And they said: 'The God of the Hebrews hath met with us. Let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest He fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.'4 And the king of Egypt said unto them: 'Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, cause the people to break loose from their work? get you unto your burdens.'5 And Pharaoh said: 'Behold, the people of the land are now many, and will ye make them rest from their burdens?'6 And the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying:7 'Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore. Let them go and gather straw for themselves.8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish aught thereof; for they are idle; therefore they cry, saying: Let us go and sacrifice to our God.9 Let heavier work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard lying words.'
10 And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spoke to the people, saying: 'Thus saith Pharaoh: I will not give you straw.11 Go yourselves, get you straw where ye can find it; for nought of your work shall be diminished.'12 So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble for straw.13 And the taskmasters were urgent, saying: 'Fulfil your work, your daily task, as when there was straw.'14 And the officers of the children of Israel, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten, saying: 'Wherefore have ye not fulfilled your appointed task in making brick both yesterday and today as heretofore?'
mlsu 16 days ago [-]
The plagues come later, I suppose.
nelsonfigueroa 16 days ago [-]
Historically, when a new technology enables workers to be more productive the baseline expectation goes up. We don't get time back.
>This inadvertently led to an increase in the use of slaves. Whitney had hoped his invention would do the opposite by reducing the amount of labor needed to process cotton, but he never invented a machine to harvest cotton. That job still had to be done by hand. Cotton harvesting machines did not show up until the 1930s. So as cotton farmers expanded their plantations, they bought more slaves to pick the cotton.
nelsonfigueroa 16 days ago [-]
Yeah this is exactly what comes to mind when I think about new tech and productivity increases. I remember learning about this as a kid in history class and it's still relevant today.
swiftcoder 16 days ago [-]
The 4 day work week was already proven to improve productivity before LLMs. We could probably do a 3 day workweek with Claude Code!
m463 15 days ago [-]
I think there is a paradox here - more time off makes you "dispose" of more of your "disposable cash"
xyzal 16 days ago [-]
Everyone laments how everyone will get "a lot" of days off in the end, but regulation is still a dirty word in here.
sevenzero 16 days ago [-]
The AI ultralords dream is a world with a few billion less humans. We will work till we die and we wont own anything.
poulpy123 16 days ago [-]
Under capitalism is a question of either the benevolence of your employer (rare but it may happen), or your capacity to impose a day off
In turn, your capacity to impose a day off is a question of either your personal power or of class struggle.
Of course when you arrive at the question of the class struggle, the discourse becomes funny
charles_f 16 days ago [-]
But, have you thought of the shareholders?
smashah 16 days ago [-]
No because the Epsteinist Class in charge have decided to make it zero sum. Therefore it's a fight to the death. Which is why with Ai we're 10x more productive and either 10x more busy or fired and on our way to food stamps
tap-snap-or-nap 16 days ago [-]
Did anyone ask for the 8 hour work day?
marcus_holmes 16 days ago [-]
Yes, activists fought and people died to achieve it.
Read up on the Ten Hour Movement or the Bread & Roses strike.
You are never going to get relief by asking politely.
ms_menardi 16 days ago [-]
This is the most brilliant thing I've read all year. That note at the bottom... Amazing.
bwhiting2356 16 days ago [-]
What's preventing you from advertising your services as a contractor for 4 days a week?
AngryData 16 days ago [-]
I think expecting worker rights to go up or working time to go down without laws/general strikes and more unions is naive. We have had massive productivity gains in every field since the 20th century, and in half of fields throughout the 19th century, and do we work any less or get paid better? No. In fact the entire goal of the last labor movement we had was to reduce working hours back to what peoples parents and grandparents worked. The 40 hour work week was merely a return to historical norms so the people didn't rise up and start hanging capitalists and politicians.
Tractors didn't making farming more lucrative, it just meant less farmers. Automated loom technology didn't make textile workers wealthier, it made capitalists richer, and then still ultimately shipped the work to poorer countries. Powered drills and tools didn't make miners or construction workers wealthier or work less. Forklifts didn't make dock workers wealthier or work less. Women entering the workforce and nearly doubling the available labor didn't make us work any less.
I don't see AI doing anything to help the working class in any way, just funneling more money into capitalists hands while the productivity demands increase.
Even in programming, where AI is being shown to be the most useful, did any of you have your work demands decrease or wages go up? No, at best they just fired junior engineers and told them to go pound sand.
_HMCB_ 16 days ago [-]
It’s all roses. AI is what exactly what the world needed. How can we not be grateful.
_moof 16 days ago [-]
Whenever a new way is found to improve efficiency, choices have to be made about how to distribute the new surplus.
Choices are made by people who have power and imposed upon people who don't.
The people with power under current systems don't care about the people who do the work. They care about getting rich. So if there's an efficiency gain to be had, all of that new efficiency is going to be put towards increasing output or reallocating work. None of it - under current power structures - will ever go towards allowing workers to work less, because workers aren't the ones deciding where it will go.
d4mi3n 16 days ago [-]
Unless one choses to bargain. Perhaps collectively.
Avicebron 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
doublepg23 16 days ago [-]
Quoting a tweet:
“People on twitter will really be like ‘you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart’ and then not firebomb a Walmart”
slg 16 days ago [-]
Revolutions don't start with violence. People talk about it first.
quadrifoliate 16 days ago [-]
I don't understand why people make these hyperbolic jokes about guillotines. Violence is counterproductive; and not practical anyway. Joking about it just makes you feel great without actually doing anything.
There is a simple alternative. Vote; and educate your family and friends.
If you don't know what is on the ballot in the midterms, you are part of the problem. If you aren't starting a family conversation about how corporations are squeezing us, you are part of the problem.
iteria 16 days ago [-]
Everyone talks about MLK, but no one points out that people were willing to listen because Malcom X was a looming threat if MLK failed. Yes vote, but the threat of violence is what makes voting a delighted option. That's why protests exist. They are reminders that peace is a choice.
Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down. The rise of the guillotine jokes are the first time that people are losing faith in the peaceful option. We should hope that our leaders don't make most of use disillusioned with the idea of a peaceful transfer of power.
It'll probably disabuse you of the idea that its a good way to get things done.
sassbadger 16 days ago [-]
It is one of the most eye opening pieces of media. Especially the French and Russian Revolutions are covered in such great detail, while staying interesting. I also loved the appendix to the show where Mike talked about "patterns" in a revolution. Learned a lot about the relationship between the government and its people.
ericd 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, for me, Revolutions and The History of Rome are two of the best examples of "this is why knowing history is useful", and that history isn't actually boring - it's basically a highlight reel of some of the highest human dramas. Mike Duncan put out some incredible work.
kombookcha 16 days ago [-]
It's never been a good way to get things done, but when you block off every other venue for change people will be much more willing to take a chance on a high risk option. Violent revolutions aren't usually the first thing people try.
Democracies that arise by nonviolent revolution, do so in part due to the threat of what comes next if the nonviolent revolution is crushed. Because if you make sure placards and petitions don't work, it eventually won't be placards and petitions anymore.
'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable', and all that.
ericd 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, I get that it's a useful threat to back up the nonviolent options. I just don't think Americans have tried the nonviolent options wrt economics with any amount of real effort yet, and it's worrying/annoying to see people jumping to the nuclear option as soon as they personally hit a rough patch or start getting scared of one.
When I've gone to local government meetings, I've generally been one of only a few without gray hair. The vast majority of working-age people seemingly can't be bothered to learn the basics about who's running in a non-presidential election, let alone go argue for the boring but extremely impactful things that would actually help people out.
People need to put down the phones and put in some actual effort on fixing things before even jokingly advocating for something that would almost certainly be a mass casualty event. It's shameful.
kombookcha 16 days ago [-]
I don't disagree. Local politics and unionizing are much more impactful than people realize.
klipt 16 days ago [-]
Everyone remembers Malcolm X, but does anyone remember the names of the thousands of civilians who protested the Iranian regime and got summarily executed?
Resistance doesn't work very well against highly militarized autocratic regimes.
rapidaneurism 16 days ago [-]
France had revolution and guillotines, but the UK had a strong police force and good suppression.
achierius 16 days ago [-]
The UK didn't just repress its citizens, it ultimately caved to them. The voting reforms of the 19th century gave people essentially everything they wanted, at the time, and as a consequence when the rest of europe was going thru 1848 Britain was chilling. But just a few years beforehand there was legitimate fear that the government would be toppled by rioters! You can't judge centuries of history just by looking at the end result.
_doctor_love 16 days ago [-]
> Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down.
[EDIT: for the downvoters - the folks who got guillotined in France were definitely bad, but the Terror was very real and very awful. It tends to be a trend with the noble overthrowers that after the initial wins they then get excited to go lop the heads off anyone else that might have ever bothered them. Be careful what you wish for.]
cwillu 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
bandofthehawk 16 days ago [-]
Violence is not always counterproductive
rickydroll 16 days ago [-]
So you are saying that I shouldn't start my artisanal guillotine business?
Believe me, I know what's on the ballot for the midterm in the state but it's not going to stop me from making dark snarky jokes.
wombatpm 16 days ago [-]
Mass produced and pre-staged. Think zipcar for guillotines pre positioned in finance districts and rich neighborhoods.
rickydroll 16 days ago [-]
That would make one hell of an art project.
jchw 16 days ago [-]
I don't believe that activism actually generally works, and I am skeptical that voting works either.
Don't get me wrong. I do vote, and I believe that voting and activism can work, and even still does for a variety of things. But as for fighting against forces of corruption and tyranny, I believe activism is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. Any grassroots efforts are in a horribly asymmetric battle against well-funded adversaries that will come back every year everywhere without fail to get their opening. And any hope we had of limiting corporate interests in politics has been decimated in the U.S. basically since Citizen's United — not that I really believe there wouldn't have been some other workaround had that not happened.
So yes, I believe grassroots activism largely doesn't work. The fact that the battle is so asymmetrical makes it even more asymmetrical by making people apathetic about and fatigued over activism, making it even less effective.
But people often turn their heads when there's violence.
Nobody wants violence, just like nobody wants to hit rock bottom. I believe truly that political violence is a very dark place that will be no fun for anyone involved that I personally do not want to be a part of in any way. But, it just is the case that things will get worse before they get ~~much worse~~ better.
I see it as a question of if and not when until structural changes occur that durably improve upon the asymmetry of political activism. And in that case, it's not a matter of whether or not, it's a matter of getting it the hell over with.
I don't know how the fuck these stupid Flock "safety" cameras got here, but I have a pretty good guess how they'll disappear.
wombatpm 16 days ago [-]
They grew out of red light cameras, which everyone saw as a naked cash grab- especially once towns were caught tweaking the yellow light timings.
Cops love them, and look longingly at the UK panopticon and how easy it is to solve crimes.
cameronh90 16 days ago [-]
If our panopticon actually meant crimes got solved, I’d be less pissed off by it.
Instead we’re being spied on but seemingly police can’t solve any of the crime affecting most people’s day to day lives.
llbeansandrice 16 days ago [-]
Those flock cameras arrived in many places in the US bc people did not show up to public city council meetings to oppose them, aka “activism”.
achierius 16 days ago [-]
In many cities they just bring it up again and again until it passes. They only need to win once, we need to win every time. That's the problem.
llbeansandrice 15 days ago [-]
This is anticipatory obedience and it's actively harmful.
You are also wrong. Contracts, ordinances, and everything related to governance get rolled back or changed all the time. Especially at the local level.
If you have lost the initial battle you can do the same thing as them: you keep attacking their presence and you only need to win once to undo it.
zx8080 16 days ago [-]
Are representatives that were elected deaf? Or dumb?
What is voting for then?
jchw 15 days ago [-]
Locally over here our city councils are overran with people who are anti Flock. Flock's strategy is to sneak their way in as if it is an "emergency". They've got a whole playbook.
Normal activists don't stand a chance against well-funded adversaries.
llbeansandrice 15 days ago [-]
This is just anticipatory obedience. Deciding that you've already lost before even trying is actively harmful, especially when paired with a lack of any other action.
If you don't believe in this system then start setting things on fire[0] I guess. Otherwise shut up, people are actually trying to fight it.
Like I said, I still participate. I just have absolutely zero hope this will get solved peacefully.
Feel free to spread naivity, but do not tell me to shut up, that is an endeavor less useful than any activism.
nekusar 16 days ago [-]
> I don't know how the fuck these stupid Flock "safety" cameras got here, but I have a pretty good guess how they'll disappear.
Gee golly, I have no clue how the pole ended up being cut and the solar and cameras ended up smashed.
Must'a been an "accident".
mcmcmc 16 days ago [-]
How is it hyperbolic when it’s human history?
anigbrowl 16 days ago [-]
Violence has been very productive for the ruling class. Voting sounds nice but evidence abounds about the mendacity of politicians and their willingness to subvert or overrule voters' preferences if sufficient money or status is to be had. You can say 'well vote those people out if they ignore the voters' but once a new reality has set in the politicians often gainan incumbency advantageor have lined up a cushy post-retirement gig.
vkou 16 days ago [-]
[dead]
nekusar 16 days ago [-]
[flagged]
dlev_pika 16 days ago [-]
I mean, it’s not something anonymous edgy twitter accounts have come up with. There is ample historic precedence on the trend.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
- Jefferson
16 days ago [-]
porknubbins 16 days ago [-]
My employers who are introducing AI are not laughing evil supervillains hoovering up all the excess profits, they are normal people who wanted long careers and are as nervous as anyone about competition amd what AI will do to organizations if people become truly redundant.
hilariously 16 days ago [-]
Cool well my employers fired me for an AI psychosis trip so I am glad you are working for those ones who "wanted long careers" and "are nervous as anyone" because hoboy is that not what we are seeing in the ownership class right now.
macintux 16 days ago [-]
How many of those employers are living paycheck to paycheck, struggling to feed their kids?
I have less sympathy for decision-makers who are stressed than the people who’ll be fired first, and have less mobility. Or safety net.
musicale 16 days ago [-]
> My employers who are introducing AI are not laughing evil supervillains hoovering up all the excess profits
I care less about the motivation rather than the action.
mcmcmc 16 days ago [-]
Yeah I thought my employers were good normal people too, just found out they sold to PE firm that wants to “supercharge” our operations with AI. This of course is after swearing they had no interest in M&A to get me to join. “Nothing is changing, no one is getting laid off. Things will just get more efficient so you can do more ‘strategic’ work.” Heard that one before.
chanux 16 days ago [-]
Someone up in the food chain must have big investments in AI though. The great shove down didn't just appear.
_moof 16 days ago [-]
So, are you getting your share of the surplus or not?
And what exactly does it mean to "compete"?
komali2 16 days ago [-]
Right, exactly, there's no good guys under capitalism, that's why you need industry wide labor unions moreso than within a single company.
You could have a straight up communist for a boss that completely shares all profits, but if the business doesn't extract labor value and expand as aggressively as other businesses do, it'll eventually get eaten or lawfared to death, or priced out, or closed out of deals (e.g. small player in chips related business).
So the only way to prevent industry wide redundancy at everywhere except the 1% largest companies that survive (which will also be laying off people but not completely closing down), is through organized labor. Or, I suppose, completely restructuring the economic system, which I'm very down to chat about as well, but the labor organizing feels more achievable for now.
llbeansandrice 16 days ago [-]
They are absolutely hoovering up the excess profits are you fucking stupid? That’s literally how capitalism works.
When have you ever saved the company money and been given a bonus that was even 1/10th of that money?
necovek 16 days ago [-]
This would assume there was excess profits to begin with. The jury still seems out on that one.
lubujackson 16 days ago [-]
It is almost reassuring to think that rich and powerful people all know what they are doing every step of the way. A handful may, but most certainly do not. Most are also terrified of AI. Stable profits are always better than transformative change, if you already have power and riches. Look at how insane companies are acting right now with token quotas for employees and mandates AI usage - the goal is not to milk profits but to not fall behind every other company in case this becomes table stakes. They are trying not to be devoured by a beast they don't understand.
When the AI bubble pops, large companies will be extremely relieved to stop throwing money into the wind playing this game. For most companies, the AI arms race is a huge hassle. They are fine with losing money in the short term and even in the long term as long as they can find a stable path forward.
This is the exact same trajectory as when the internet came out and every insurance company and toothpick manufacturer spent gobs of money to have a brochure website built because everyone else had one. This will play out differently, but recognize most companies are acting entirely from a place of fear right now.
TheWrongGuy 16 days ago [-]
"Hence too the economic paradox, that the most powerful instrument for shortening labour-time, becomes the most unfailing means for placing every moment of the labourer's time and that of his family, at the disposal of the capitalist for the purpose of expanding the value of his capital." - some crazy radical economist, nearly 200 years ago
jonstewart 16 days ago [-]
"The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." — Thucydides
tsunamifury 16 days ago [-]
It’s a stupid statement by a stupid philosopher. Years later we learned collective development and incentive produced a society he could have never imagined.
It’s simply being looted now by the idiots this moron worshiped.
jonstewart 14 days ago [-]
It’s from the Melian Dialogue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos) and it’s perhaps the most succinct embodiment of the realist school of international relations/politics.
I quote it here because the best way to get a day off is not to continue being weak, but to find strength, just as miners and railroad workers found strength in the 1870s.
AlterEgo7 16 days ago [-]
You sound very sure of your opinion... While missing the basic fact that he was a historian, not a philosopher.
tsunamifury 16 days ago [-]
The commentary was that of a general/philosopher/historian fused together... and really just a statement of "the weak are meat". Yes power has an advantage but its not the end all be all configuration.
Maybe he meant this somewhat disparagingly, but ultimately not enough. For a greek.
jvanderbot 16 days ago [-]
This narrative is clean, matches expectations and history.
But let's be clear - we all probably own a decent part of our companies (collectively). Productivity gains mean winning the race to market, profits, glory. And that means ownership is valuable.
At the _very least_, you can push your company stock higher and buy it with your 10% IRA contributions or through a similar investment program and make 16x your investment over your 40 year career.
It's easy to look tactically at productivity gains being "captured" by high CEO bonuses, and that's legitimate, but we have so sufficiently seized the means of wealth production if we have stock options and market access that I'm not sure it's really valid to say we get, paraphrasing, "nothing if not a day off work".
whiplash451 16 days ago [-]
Companies don’t care about it but governments certainly do.
Over the past 150 years, the work week dropped from 70+ to 35h in France.
Granted that’s a long time horizon but still.
jlebar 16 days ago [-]
> Choices are made by people who have power and imposed upon people who don't.
In a capitalist society, choices are made according to supply and demand.
In a world where there's a positive supply shock (in this case, there's a lot more programming available for purchase today than there was a year ago), supply goes up. We therefore expect the price for the good to decrease.
This has nothing to do with power or whether people care about xyz. It's a consequence of the economic system we live under.
You can desire to live under a different economic system! That's logically coherent. But if you want the laws of supply and demand not to apply to you, that's what you're asking for.
Honestly I'm getting tired of this narrative. People take the benefits of capitalism for granted (indeed most of us on this forum do very well for ourselves relative to the average person in our country and around the world), but we blame all of its downsides on "bad people".
skew-aberration 16 days ago [-]
From where do you get your understanding of the terms supply and demand? They are primarily from classical economics - have you read any? e.g Adam Smith?
ncallaway 16 days ago [-]
Right, but a day off would reduce supply.
And 2 days off was not a system dictated by God, which we are obligated to keep in perpetuity (in fact, most religions dictate 1 day off, not 2).
So, we could, as a society, just choose to make a 32 hour workweek “full time”, and mandate overtime pay after that.
There’s no reason, even under capitalism that we must allow all of the productivity gains to accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
In fact, I think if we choose to do that as a society, it will end horrifically.
jlebar 16 days ago [-]
> There’s no reason, even under capitalism that we must allow all of the productivity gains to accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
I would question the premise that all or even most of the productivity gains of any past technological improvement have accrued to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
200 years ago 90% of Americans lived on farms. In the early 1900s, it was 40%. Today that number is 2%.
The economic surplus from that increase in productivity accrued to everyone in society, not just the wealthy. (The evidence for this is that we are all living at a higher standard of living today than we were in the early 1800s or 1900s.)
But certainly the positive supply shock was not great news for farmers, many of whom lost their jobs. In the case of AI, I'm asking us -- programmers -- not to make the mistake of saying "this is not a benefit for me, therefore it's not a benefit for society".
JuniperMesos 16 days ago [-]
> But certainly the positive supply shock was not great news for farmers, many of whom lost their jobs. In the case of AI, I'm asking us -- programmers -- not to make the mistake of saying "this is not a benefit for me, therefore it's not a benefit for society".
I'm not sure about that - farming kind of sucks. I think what the transition away from farming generally looked like was people who had some kind of small family farm, where multiple generations had worked hard all their lives to make a living growing crops, having kids who left the farm to work in some other industry, and making more money that way and having better working conditions (at the price of living a more urban lifestyle foreign to their family back on the farm). When their parents' generation got old and was ready to pass the family farm along, the urban worker generation decided they'd rather not quit their jobs and go back to the family farm; so (perhaps with some feeling of guilt), they sold the land to a large farming conglomerate; and then the next generations who grew up in an urban area doing white-collar jobs simply forgot that their ancestors had ever been farmers.
Something like this happened in my own family - about one hundred years ago, my great-grandfather owned a farm on what was then the outskirts of the bay area. He sold the land when he retired, no one else in my family ever did agricultural work, I only know the story, and the land that farm was once on is now incredibly valuable bay area real estate that is not being used for any agricultural purpose. I have no desire to work in agriculture.
musicale 16 days ago [-]
> I would question the premise that all or even most of the productivity gains of any past technological improvement have accrued to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
The historical automation story seems to be that technology replaces workers, and those workers typically end up taking lower-paying jobs:
"replacing workers with technology “explains 50 to 70%” of the increase in inequality from 1980 to about 2016."
They point out a disappointing aspect of some technologies (self-checkout), which seems to be that not only are workers displaced, but customers also experience degraded service (probably without a new benefit such as a discount for using self-checkout.)
jlebar 16 days ago [-]
> The historical automation story seems to be that technology replaces workers, and those workers typically end up taking lower-paying jobs
As I said, when farming became more efficient, it wasn't great to be a farmer.
But when I say (and I assume everyone else here also says) "I don't want to go back to a world where 90% of people had to be farmers" (because farming was so inefficient), that's another way of saying, the world that farming efficiencies gave us is richer / more preferable overall than the previous world. In other words, the economic surplus did not go exclusively or primarily to the richest.
I expect the same will be true for AI. I think our society should do more to help the displaced. But I do not want my grandchildren to live in a world where, 100 years from now, 90% of people are still doing jobs that could be done by a computer, but we choose for the computer not to do them. Just like I wouldn't want to have to be a farmer.
musicale 16 days ago [-]
> As I said, when farming became more efficient, it wasn't great to be a farmer
What you seem to be saying is that consolidation of the farming industry into fewer producers with higher productivity was good for food buyers and society at large, which might be true but doesn't contradict GP's point that when their company earns $100 more due to improved employee productivity, approximately $0 of that will be paid to the employees, so they find little reason to celebrate.
The link I posted makes somewhat different yet important points: first, the arc of automation seems to tend toward increased inequality (and a hollowing-out of the middle class); second, automation may provide a markedly worse (but cheaper) replacement for the thing it replaces. Even in the case of farming, many fruits and vegetables are less nutritious than they were 100 years ago - perhaps effects of selective breeding (such as for size, shelf-life/durability, resistance to pests/pesticides/herbicides/etc.), soil depletion, environmental changes, etc.
musicale 14 days ago [-]
see also: "The Record Divide Between Corporate Profits and Worker Pay"
> In other words, the economic surplus did not go exclusively or primarily to the richest.
That was in large part due of strong leftist movements and states that forced the capitalists to share the increasing wealth. WW2 and the resulting labor shortage and other special circumstances contributed as well. Currently no such movements and circumstances exist. Globalization and the resulting free movent of capital has put capitalists in a better position to direct the extra wealth for themselves than ever before. A global movement is required to get a meaningful share of the increased surplus to the workers now, and that is very hard to do. The market will not do it on its own, as the demand for human labor eventually decreases due to automation.
ncallaway 14 days ago [-]
> I would question the premise that all or even most of the productivity gains of any past technological improvement have accrued to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
That would be relevant if I stood for that premise, but I don't and I wasn't putting it forward.
I was responding to your earlier claim:
> But if you want the laws of supply and demand not to apply to you, that's what you're asking for.
I was disagreeing that this was what was being asked in the present moment. What was being asked in the present moment ("can we have a day off") is very similar to what was being demanded in the past.
In the past, workers demanded to share in the wealth and productivity that was being created through technological gains. And so, I agree with you, workers in the modern era have benefited massively from past technological gains. But that wasn't an accident. Those gains were earned through the blood and sweat of workers demanding to be included in those gains.
And so, to ensure that these present gains continue to be distributed more equally, we need to continue applying the pressure that was applied in the past.
But that's not a rejection of the the laws of supply and demand, it's at a social layer before the economics of supply and demand apply. It's at the political and social layer of how much work we expect an individual worker to put forward into society, which is a major factor in determining the amount of supply of work available.
It's a political decision—totally separate from a rejection of capitalism—of how many hours a "full week of work" is. It is not a rejection of capitalism to set the "full work week" to 48 hours, or to 40 hours, or to 32 hours.
komali2 16 days ago [-]
> The economic surplus from that increase in productivity accrued to everyone in society, not just the wealthy.
Sure, a poor man with two dollars is richer than a poor man with one dollar.
And yet the man handing out the dollars had 100$ in surplus when he was handing out 1s and now that he's handing out 2's he's got 1,000,000,000.
Look at the wealth disparity. Even if quality of life has increased, it's not wrong for the people delivering that increased quality of life (workers) to also demand a requisite slice of the pie.
In fact, I see no reason why the pie should be shared with wealthy non workers at all. Were they necessary for the increased quality of life?
On top of that, it's a global economy. Expand beyond the USA and include in your analysis how life has changed in imperialized nations that now function as cheap labor sources for our factories that pollute the local environment while exploiting workers for absurdly low wages and bad working conditions.
jlebar 16 days ago [-]
> Expand beyond the USA and include in your analysis how life has changed in imperialized nations that now function as cheap labor sources for our factories that pollute the local environment while exploiting workers for absurdly low wages and bad working conditions.
Agreed, let's do that! Here is the economic history of the developing world over the past 70 years.
Pick any metric you care about: number of people living on less than $1/day, literacy, maternal mortality, access to birth control. It has dramatically improved in the developing world over the past 70 years or so.
komali2 16 days ago [-]
Capitalists invented metrics to show how awesome capitalism for the world, and then said "see, against these metrics, the world is better!"
Putting the poverty line at 1$ a day, or saying people crossed from 2$/day to $3/day is "poverty decreasing," lets people get these self-serving numbers. Poverty declined, relative to what threshold? Do these people have secure housing, medical care, education, political power, in line with their contributions to the global market they've been shoved into?
People being moved from centuries old homes distributed across agrarian geographies into slums, that's improvement?
People living side by side to polluting factories that poison their water, that's improvement?
These people are foisted into a global supply chain, their economies changed into e.g. unsustainable cash crop or similar fragile-to-price-shock products, and themselves thrust into market dependence without any labor security since outside entities show up, exploit while it's profitable, then disappear without leaving any meaningful industrialization to the overall nation. Not to mention there's still a lot of people being straight up enslaved.
jlebar 16 days ago [-]
> Look at the wealth disparity. Even if quality of life has increased, it's not wrong for the people delivering that increased quality of life (workers) to also demand a requisite slice of the pie.
Sure, but the argument being made is that "productivity gains accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth."
That is simply not true. Across the entire world, from rich countries to poor countries, economic development, driven in large part by technological development, has resulted in a dramatic improvement to everyone's quality of life.
The way some people talk about it, it's as though they wish they were middle class in the 1920s instead of in the 2020s. People are so. much. richer. today. In ways that really matter, like education, retirement, ability to travel the world. MEDICINE.
I get that it still sucks today. The only point I'm making is that it's false that the historical economic surplus has accrued "solely" (or even, mostly) to the wealthiest. It's not true.
blackjack_ 16 days ago [-]
Both can be true. Standards can both have improved since the 1920s and income inequality can be equivalent or worse than the gilded age. This would be coherent with improvements mostly being funneled to the top, while some benefits accrue throughout the economy.
However the story is much more dynamic and interesting than that, with income inequality shrinking until the late 70s and early 80s, then expanding drastically until now, half a century later. That period of lower income inequality is mostly why things got better for the working class (but science and technology have marched on regardless).
komali2 16 days ago [-]
> I get that it still sucks today. The only point I'm making is that it's false that the historical economic surplus has accrued "solely" (or even, mostly) to the wealthiest. It's not true.
It is, though, if we talk scale. The rich went from having big houses in the 1920s to being sent into space, or building private libertarian colonies, or buying elections, or potentially increasing their lifespan a few decades, in the 2020s. The working class went from working 40hrs a week until age 64 when they retire in a house they own, to working 60hrs a week until they die, but hey, that death might be at an older age!
The improvement disparity between the two makes the improvement for the working class insignificant enough to be dismissible. I don't buy into the idea that the working class should be grateful that the scraps now have better seasoning.
I mean really, just look at the wealth gap. Imagine how much better the lives of everyone could be if that wealth was distributed better! Fuck a 20 hr workweek, what about 5?
skelo 16 days ago [-]
Yeah, no kidding. I want AI work for me during I'm traveling
aiisahik 16 days ago [-]
Imagine only 10% of the white collar labor force were allowed to use AI. In that case, those 10% would be given 2 or 3 days off a week. Easy.
Now imagine if only 10% of companies were allowed to use AI. Those companies would easily be willing to give 2-3 days off per week to their workers. Makes sense since those companies would easily outcompete the others and so they would have enough economic surplus to provide lavish benefits to their workers.
However, because 100% of companies and 100% of workers have access to AI, the competitive pressure on the deployment of capital means that no days off can be given.
New perks are only given to you if you, your company or your country has some sustainable systemic advantage over other employees, companies or countries.
In the absence of those sustainable systemic advantage, any perk given would put you, your company or your country at a competitive disadvantage against some other employee, company or country who are willing to work without such perk.
The only way to sustain such a perk in those situations is with anti-competitive practices: Labor Unions, protectionism, corruption, etc.
amelius 16 days ago [-]
> Can we have the day off?
Yeah, like when the steam engine was invented?
coolThingsFirst 16 days ago [-]
Yes, the next year off as well because they will fire you.
NiceWayToDoIT 16 days ago [-]
I am kind of late to comment, but let me try anyway.
Can we have a day off? Yes and no, or yes, but at your expense.
The problem is system design. If a company earned money for its contributors/workers, then each gain would be shared across the company, from the board to its employees. But a company earns money for its shareholders, and you, as an employee, are in the expense column.
Therefore, a day off is either a mandatory legal right meant to help you rest so you can be more productive, or it is just additional unproductive time that does not create more value or maximize profit.
Therefore, this is where the argument for a 4-day working week collapses. To get a 4-day working week would mean yes, but with less "expense", or a lower salary.
For the same reason, taxing the rich would not help "the people" much, as it goes to the wrong pocket.
Is there are fix, yes.
zx8080 16 days ago [-]
No. Because profit, and it's not yours one.
jmward01 16 days ago [-]
We need to get creative in ways that help. I am personally for:
- sabbaticals
- flat out taking 2 years off every 5 to go back to school full time
- the mid weekend (don't give me Friday. Give me Wednesday!)
- Massive increases to new baby time off programs
- early retirement -but- with the encouragement to start fresh in a new field after a transition break.
- Of course, just more time off. But -require- it. If you don't take your yearly vacation time you miss out on the 'vacation bonus check'.
You want to create jobs? Find ways to get people legitimately out of the workforce. By that I mean out of the workforce but still spending money and improving their skills for when they come back in.
mrcwinn 16 days ago [-]
Capitalists moralize a lot about people becoming “lazy” or not having “direction” if society subsidizes not working - and yet their entire mission is centered around deploying money, letting money “work.”
If capital is doing the work, why on earth are they getting paid?
spl757 16 days ago [-]
Channeling my inner-masteroftheworld, No.
16 days ago [-]
sibeliuss 16 days ago [-]
Maybe a lot of this comes down to people are having fun building stuff in a way they weren't before? But i imagine this will all die down.
Ifkaluva 16 days ago [-]
I like vibe coding for personal projects where the code is a throwaway, but I hate vibecoding at work when I later have to stake my reputation in validity of results, as well as maintain the resulting implementation.
sibeliuss 16 days ago [-]
Well the answer is easy, don't vibe code then?
Ifkaluva 15 days ago [-]
I would love to, but in some companies these days that’s really not an option
tamimio 16 days ago [-]
Silly you, the 9-5 5days a week schedule was introduced by ford in his factories, did they change that when automation was introduced later? Internet? Nope. And this 9-5 is actually 7-6 if you count the commute.
Speaking of AI, it’s been what, 3 years since it became mainstream? Did the employees wellbeing’s become better? Are the codes better? Do we have a breakthrough innovations that changed fundamentally in how we use/deal with xyz? All I hear is more work, more anxiety, more cost for some tokens, so I am not entirely sure about the “productivity increase” claim.
avodonosov 16 days ago [-]
And not be off completely...
WesolyKubeczek 16 days ago [-]
As AI gets more successful in taking away bullshit makework, instead of having days off or doing something else meaningful for the company, the bullshit makework just multiplies to keep everyone and everything just as busy as before, like kipple.
And then this phenomenon is being called 10x productivity and celebrated.
This is why we cannot have nice things.
/me is off to rewatch They Live
mbf1 16 days ago [-]
No. You can't have the day off. AI might make you and everyone else more productive, but that just means we need 10% as many employees, and 1 to 8 of your 10 closest peers are producing more slop than you, and so we're going to let you go. Security is going to show you out in 3, 2, 1...
eeixlk 16 days ago [-]
Elon cares.
16 days ago [-]
tkel 15 days ago [-]
This is a problem fundamental to capitalism. Capitalist organizations are organized as dictatorships, with capitalists as the dictators. Captialists have their own class interests that is opposed to the workers'. And they also are the ones who unilaterally decide how increased productivity gains (revenue/profit) are distributed. They are not going to decide to give you another day off. They are going to maximize profit.
ALL technological progress under capitalism goes through this same conflict. It's why workers are sometimes pressed into reactionary positions like opposing self-checkout lanes. Capitalists decide to deploy the technology in a way that is worse for the workers. Technological progress could be liberatory. Technology could be used to make workers' lives better, like working less, if workers were in charge of the organizations in which they worked.
sterlind 16 days ago [-]
Scott Alexander's 2014 essay, Meditations on Moloch, explains why we ended up in this rat king of human misery rather than a utopia. I recommend it:
basically, we can blame greedy corporate overlords, and that's cathartic, and somewhat correct, but we can (and have) ended up in a hell of our own making even with every individual wanting to do better. the boss that wants to let workers have the day off can't afford to, because the competition makes workers do 8x5. the competition lays off workers to pay for more tokens, because their competitors are. it's a bad game equilibrium.
labor laws are the reason we have the five day work week. we needed overtime to dissuade employers from defecting from the policy. we need coordination to keep AI from turning out like children working the bobbins in old-timey textile factories.
mbgerring 16 days ago [-]
Here’s your occasional reminder that US software engineers should unionize.
aarjaneiro 15 days ago [-]
No, you'll need to be on call to fix all the slop falling apart
zephraph 16 days ago [-]
here, here.
runako 16 days ago [-]
lmao Corporate had a hissy fit from people working full weeks at home. The 4-day work week will never* come to the US.
* - not while any of us reading this are under 65.
ixtli 16 days ago [-]
Marx showed this was an expression of one the central contradictions more than a century ago. Seriously it’s never too late to read about why our conditions only ever deteriorate under capitalism.
tracker1 15 days ago [-]
First, I don't think the productivity gains are nearly what they are claimed to be, and shouldn't be... I think way to many people are getting really lazy and letting a lot of slop through that they shouldn't. Human review takes time and mental overhead.
I've mentioned a few times, that I actually appreciate an aspect of Claude's 5 hr API window... I generally watch, stop, re-prompt and review what comes out. I'm not running a bunch of separate prompts and instances all at once. I'm using AI to plan and do a lot of work... I am getting a lot more output and a lot more value for that time than I could without it. It takes a toll... and the few times I've hit the window on API usage actually aligns with that toll in when I need a break.
I also assume I'm not going to be productive all day... I'll review mail, checkout articles on HN, comment, etc. I'm generally actively in a productive flow about 5 hours a day... with AI, I can be a lot more productive. That said, my current job is pretty locked down and I'm unable to leverage AI for most things... I've been able to use my own computer to write a few libraries/utils that I can then leverage in-job... but that's about it.
Mental work can be more tiresome than physical work, depending on the individual jobs. You aren't "on" all the time. This isn't a statement against or for a 4 day work week, only countering part of the narrative.
Right now the job market is a mess... developer wages are severely suppressed and almost everything is "contract" based and lacking basic benefits like good medical insurance, vacation time, etc. It pretty much sucks. AI is not a panacea, and it's not a replacement for skilled developers. Not only that, but a junior developer + AI can literally be several steps backward compared to a skilled developer without AI or with.
I'm seeing a lot of cool things happen on GitHub projects I follow, a lot of it allowed by leveraging AI... most of the best stuff not left to AI alone. It's a tool. On the flip side, I do think a lot of major employers need to return to actual employees with actual, meaningful benefits and even start implementing profit sharing... There are a lot of people pushing for outright Communism, and they're winning elections in some places. Just from a CYA point of view, it's time to treat the workforce a little better. I'd rather not have communism become prominent in the US... it won't be pretty.
damirkotoric 14 days ago [-]
No we can't because that's not how capitalism works.
Marx called it exploitation for a reason.
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drsalt 16 days ago [-]
i really dislike lazy bums. you are in a position to use great tools for productivity and you're not inspired to work harder? you should be fired on the spot.
thin_carapace 16 days ago [-]
indeed those who engage in the capitalistic system without devoting the entirety of their soul to generation of profit, they are subhuman and therefore deserve to be subservient. true humanity is found in embodying our animal nature and maximizing the influence of individual genetics - money is a mere vehicle to express the totality of the human spirit. those lacking money clearly lack spirit and should be considered beneath humanity, effectively equivalent to livestock. baa baa black sheep, give me every last thread of your wool or be exiled
vlunkr 16 days ago [-]
Fired on the spot? The hyperbole doesn't help your argument.
What inspires me to work harder is getting to work on things that I enjoy.
drsalt 16 days ago [-]
not an argument m8 it's an opinion
matchbok3 16 days ago [-]
Sorry, I'd rather have a higher quality of living for most people (as evidenced by any huge development in technology) rather than humanity stagnating. This post is quite myopic.
mlsu 16 days ago [-]
I would be able to see my niece in person and hear her laugh if I could have this Friday off.
ux266478 16 days ago [-]
I'm deadly certain that routing more of society into producing SaaS webapp shovelware (and the infrastructure to support it) is not in fact going to improve quality of life, and will in fact cause us to stagnate.
matchbok3 15 days ago [-]
Please. Nobody is claiming that is the value here. Do better.
AngryData 16 days ago [-]
You think if people worked less technological progress would just completely seize up and humanity stagnate? I find that pretty hard to believe and see no evidence to support that.
matchbok3 15 days ago [-]
Um, yes?
krashidov 16 days ago [-]
> If AI is going to 10x our productivity across the board, that means that I should be able to produce the same amount of output by midday on Monday that, in the before times, would have taken all week.
That would be true if you and only you are 10x more productive than anyone else. Since everyone is now 10x more productive it just means you have to work just as much as before since you're competition can outwork you. I don't get why people don't understand this.
lmm 16 days ago [-]
> That would be true if you and only you are 10x more productive than anyone else. Since everyone is now 10x more productive it just means you have to work just as much as before since you're competition can outwork you.
Why? I don't need 10x more stuff. I'd far rather spend 10x less time working. If we're talking about an actual productivity increase, let's just produce the same amount of stuff in 10x less time.
markive 16 days ago [-]
Because your competitor can now produce 10x more work with the same resources that your company can only produce 1x, therefore in short order your company isn't competitive and will cease to exist.
mil22 16 days ago [-]
> Why? I don't need 10x more stuff. I'd far rather spend 10x less time working.
It's a free market - if you can find someone willing to hire you to work 0.5 days a week, and are happy receiving the same income you do today, you can do so.
But your living standards won't improve, while everyone else's will, and by 10x.
And the people you are competing with to buy housing, a car, consumer goods, healthcare, food, and everything else - people who want to work 5 days a week - will have 10x more money than you. Resources like housing, which are supply constrained, will seem to go up dramatically in price relative to your income, and you'll be living in a slum.
Does that still sound like a good idea?
lmm 16 days ago [-]
> Resources like housing, which are supply constrained, will seem to go up dramatically in price relative to your income, and you'll be living in a slum.
That sounds like a problem with that system. If we're 10x more productive why can't we make 10x as much nice housing?
mil22 16 days ago [-]
> That sounds like a problem with that system. If we're 10x more productive why can't we make 10x as much nice housing?
Because the supply of land is relatively inelastic (and to some extent building materials and construction labor). There isn't suddenly 10x more land on the planet because we all start using AI. Maybe we can make more land or build taller buildings, but it gets progressively more difficult and expensive. And because of NIMBY of course.
themanmaran 16 days ago [-]
Sure the consumer won't consume 10x more, but they're still going to reach for the better products.
And let's say that work is correlated with quality. Company A wants to spend 10x less time working, while Company B works 10x more. Company B therefore has a better product than Company A, so eventually Company A goes away. The consumer still consumed the same amount, but they switched to the better product.
lmm 16 days ago [-]
> The consumer still consumed the same amount, but they switched to the better product.
Either the product was 10x better, which I don't think I need, or it wasn't really a 10x increase in productivity.
krashidov 16 days ago [-]
> Why? I don't need 10x more stuff.
If everyone had said this 100 years ago we wouldn't have the Polio vaccine, air conditioning etc.
There are lots of problems in the world and there are still a ton of incentives to fix those problems. Yes there is also greed, scams, and exploitation - but that's never going to go away
lmm 16 days ago [-]
> If everyone had said this 100 years ago we wouldn't have the Polio vaccine, air conditioning etc.
If we got a 4-hour work week that might be a worthwhile trade.
krashidov 16 days ago [-]
I agree it would be nice. Technically you can start a company and do 4 day work weeks only
themanmaran 16 days ago [-]
Yea it's always been competition that's the issue. Greed too. But complacency is really difficult as a business owner.
In the world where someone can take your cake by working 25% more hours, it's always going to happen.
thundergolfer 16 days ago [-]
This is downvoted but's it pointing out a fundamental dynamic in capitalism. Labour activists had to intervene in this dynamic to protect workers from being exhausted by the constant need for capital to increase labour exploitation to increase profits.
Almost this entire thread is people discussing a labour issue with no reference to the fundamental antagonism between labour and capital.
mil22 16 days ago [-]
This comment should not be getting downvoted. It's exactly right.
I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should be seriously asking in our next all hands meetings if 10x’ing our productivity can get us some days off. Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
So far we’re all kind of being chumps about this, bragging on Linkedin about all of our new found AI productivity while accepting less job security and no increase in comp.
Open source is not to blame here. AI companies used the code, in some cases against the license, to train their models.
Nobody is actually getting replaced - it's just that layoffs are in vogue now. If there was productivity to gain here, it would be used to do more and capture more of the market.
Could you point to some factual basis for that claim, or is this a feeling disguised as an opinion disguised as a factual statement?
https://cmr.berkeley.edu/2025/10/seven-myths-about-ai-and-pr...
https://www.technologyreview.com/2026/05/26/1137855/a-realit...
You?
My sources? Easy.
Just try searching for news stories of companies directly stating AI is the reason for layoffs. I don’t need to do any statistical or mental gymnastics for my evidence of it happening when it is literally as easy as looking at the result and the stated causes.
You know companies lie and overstate things, right?
Are you missing the pattern here?
Which of these articles and which part specifically do you believe supports the statement “NO ONE” is losing their job due to AI? Zero. Not a single one?
Okay, if not that, are you trying to refute my statement that automation is increasing across sectors? Which one of your articles refutes this statement categorically? Is it that you’re refuting AI is used in or to implement automations? Are you refuting that people have lost jobs to automations? Are you refuting that an AI does not need to replace an ENTIRE job in order to cause someone to lose their job or for a job to be replaced with a lesser paying job?
I’m not clear on how you think what you have provided is actually contextually relevant to the words I actually wrote, much less how I must have a “problem” because of it.
If you don't get paid more for being more productive, someone else is getting richer. That means they buy the houses in your neighborhood, which means you can't buy it because they outbid you
are you sure about that? i'm a software engineer and i feel like i'm on the wining side now, even more than before. I'm considering quitting my 500K a year job to go compete against the employers. they seem like dinosaurs to me.
Software engineers have more leverage than ever.
The only way to get this outcome is to coordinate at a level higher than individual market participants.
In other words, get your government to implement UBI - tax all companies (or if AI really takes off, just compute) and redistribute to the people.
Is this true? There are a lot of low-productivity and zombie companies trudging through year after year.
Some companies are in highly competitive spaces while others have found a quiet, profitable niche.
And companies do have to compete for talent. If you want A-level players on your team, you're going to have to pay them more and/or provide benefits that surpass the competition.
From what I see in the market, it looks obviously true.
I’m sure there are lots of zombies too, they will die quickly IMO. Bad time to be a zombie, possibly the worst time ever.
If you were right then there wouldn't be so much busy work, especially at big companies. They would have become more efficient, not less.
Someone said the same before 1938, probably [1]
I think it's possible that AI will bring as much of a shift to our lives as the industrial revolution did, so it might be necessary to make some adjustments, just like we did back then.
[1] https://www.history.com/articles/five-day-work-week-labor-mo...
The only way to do this is to bypass the authorities.
I don't think people mind paying taxes, but it's when your taxes don't clearly benefit you that people get upset.
Honestly it seems to me like one party just wants to shift all costs to the poor (rather than the government) and the other wants to be the king of Nottingham. It's no surprise our citizens are feeling defeated. The choices appear to constantly be the lesser of two (geriatric) evils. Not choices between reasonable leaders, but with different beliefs
I hope you guys find a better way forward. I have affinity for your people and culture and I think most of you have big hearts and mean well.
I imply that the alternative to capitalism is starvation an gulags because that is roughly what happened the last 37 or so times humanity tried something else. That's just from the last century. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's infinitely better than everything else.
And you must be a high paid tech worker in a bubble if you think most people are just trying to "kill time". At least in the US the majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck.
Pretty sure if you ask this that they'll give you all your days off.
Your livelihood has a price (duh, your wage). But making cynical remarks about how stupid it is to want things to improve? Priceless.
Kind of ironic, given the way unions came to be in US during the 1930's.
Storypoints? Overestimate wildly. Stories done? Split stories like atoms! Impact of work done? Present your button color change stories as company saving divine intervention!
it feels very disingenuous to pretend there aren’t expectations of a certain level of output.
Everyone pays as little for everything as they can get away with.
Companies aren't doing anything unusual or evil. This is literally just how a market works.
A lot of people forget that the job market is a market. Or they wish it wasn't a market and they could block out competition for themselves so companies had to pay them more (at the expense of those excluded)
Just because this has been normalized doesn't mean it's not evil. If a healthcare company introduces processes that deny people life-saving interventions just to funnel more money to their shareholders, that company and its leadership are thoroughly evil.
I'd also like to add that I often pay more for things than I could get away with. I try to prefer locally owned businesses when possible, and if they have fair prices and give me good advice I often pay a bit extra (essentially a "tip" for the business) to support them.
What do you mean? Labor is a market. Companies can’t force anyone to work for them. If the pay gets too low, people leave for other companies or jobs.
> Companies can’t force anyone to work for them. If the pay gets too low, people leave for other companies or jobs.
In an ideal world, sure! But in the real world, there are many sources of friction that - when added together - keep people tied to a job, even if they feel the pay is too low.
Bullshit cop out. I regularly spend more than the “average” on technology because I’ve been burned by the bottom of the barrel too many times. Maybe you cheap out on all of your purchases, but it says nothing about “everyone”. The fact that you claim “everyone” has as few moral qualms as you is telling. But not in a way that reflects everyone. Just short sighted selfish assholes.
You missed the part about equal service. Please read my whole comment, not just snap responses to the first line.
Obviously nobody is hiring the person who has the lowest salary demands and ignoring their qualifications.
You literally just described an evil behavior. It's obviously not evil when you're shopping for gadgets, but if you think that's morally comparable to the livelihoods of human beings, I'm sorry to inform you that you're a psychopath.
> This is literally just how a market works. A lot of people forget that the job market is a market.
You say that like you think it's a law of physics. Markets don't exist in nature. Markets are a conscious, deliberate creation by humans.
> Or they wish it wasn't a market
Correct! We've unambiguously determined that applying market logic to people's livelihoods is inhumane and immoral. There shouldn't be a market for being allowed to live. It should just be guaranteed to everybody.
Productivity might get you a 5k raise more over your colleague on a 160k salary. Meanwhile the same engineer in Taiwan is more productive than you and getting paid 40k while working for the same company on the same product, and putting in more hours to boot.
Robots have pushed productivity well beyond the human capacity. But robots are not willing to work for free either, so...
But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines. They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated. They're being asked to get more work done by being higher skilled, but the bosses are collecting all of the additional revenue generated.
What do you mean in a roundabout way? It says that quite explicitly.
> But this belies the fact that the workers had to grow more skilled to operate and maintain those machines.
No they didn't. What is a capital owner going to do if the labor didn't become more skilled? Just shut everything down and take the ball home? Ha ha. No. Not a chance in hell. This is the silliest thing I've read all day.
> They took on additional costs in education that are not being compensated.
One wonders why. When they said "go to college to make more money" they were clearly talking about using college research labs to develop capital. Exactly so that you become the one deploying robots, not selling your labor. That is where the "more money" comes from. How people — traditionally smart people, even — got it into their head that meant go to college to get a low paying job, the same job they would have gotten anyway, boggles the mind. I suppose smarts don't transcend into every subject.
"Salaried" vs hourly is increasingly a scam anyway, but all that benefits stuff is something that would have to evolve. And it could, if people find the political will.
Either way it doesn't change that being paid for your output is the realm of entrepreneurship and submitting bids for project work.
As such, you are still expected to work a minimum amount of time. That's what you're signing up for. Fixed deliverable contracts- completing certain objectives- tend to either specify those things as minimum performance expectations, or are for contractors rather than employees.
You can demand whatever you want. You could demand a million dollar salary if you wanted.
The challenge is that there are a lot of very qualified devs who would do it for less.
Labor is a market. Supply and demand determines your wages.
There are always hand-wavey arguments about unionization fixing this, but when other developers are hungry for those jobs and willing to go around the union to work them for pay then that doesn’t really work at scale.
There are several unionized software development groups in the US. They don’t have a good track record of getting significantly higher pay or even getting their demands met from their limited strikes.
Some rules I actually liked. Rehearsals started and ended _exactly_ on time to avoid overtime (showing up late was the only reason you could be fired, which was a useful compromise). But generally, the union was the yin to the producers yang, and an adversarial position as worker advocate was where they wanted to be, they didn't want more ownership.
If someone gave me the chance to join something more like a worker-owned coop, where the workers on the business and vote on how it works, I would actually be down. There's a grocery store down my street like this and it's a great place. I don't know how this would actually work in tech. If there's no startup capital, no one will have a salary or benefits for years until there's a profit (if at all). And capital comes in exchange for ownership of the future upside.
The developer co-op projects I've seen have targeted consulting for this reason. The idea is that developers get together and start doing projects that can bill clients immediately, and then they'll pool the money back into developing their own something later.
In practice there's no real difference between a group of people consulting together and a co-op of consultants when everyone is just billing hourly at the start. Nobody really wants to spread their earnings around the co-op because you can see the relationship between hours worked, hours billed, and dollars coming in so clearly.
> and then they wondered why there were only big producers that first developed the show out of town.
Most unions derive a lot of their negotiating power from location-based constraints. You can gather enough musicians in one place to form a union because there are a limited number of musicians within driving distance of the location. Musicians can't do their performance over zoom and the job can't be outsourced to another country.
Software jobs have no restrictions like this. Every time there are calls for unionizing software devs, nobody wants to answer the hard questions like what incentives multi-national corporations will have to cater to the unionized employees in a country like the US where we're already paid more than our international counterparts. It's just assumed that the union will form, then companies will have no choice but to accept their demands.
Recording is increasingly outsourced, unfortunately. There are great orchestras in Eastern Europe.
I run a co-op, and the most surprising thing I've learned is that it seems the only reason other people don't set up their businesses as co-ops is, frankly, greed.
In this startup ecosystem, why would you do a co-op when you could instead chase that multi million dollar exit that profits you? If we have any kind of event like that the earnings would be distributed basically equally among around 30 people. 20 mill payout suddenly becomes... Less...
Anyway though apparently statistics are on my side. Apparently co-ops are more sustainable and live for longer than traditional corporations. It seems to me that people are much happier here than at traditional corporations.
Clients are happy, engineers are happy and productive, I'm happy because I don't have the entire responsibility of the business on my shoulders - engineers are constantly contributing to the improvement of internal systems for example, because why wouldn't they? That saves them money too!
Downsides are increased ownership come with increased responsibility. Can't just clock in here, people need to manage the client relationship, issue invoices, participate in the accounting, and if they want more work when their gig is closing out, either try to sell the client on more work or help us find another one. Until we can find an alternative revenue stream to selling our labor to clients, we're all beholden to keeping the BD wheel turning in order to get paid. Upside is that we're keeping 85% of the margin for ourselves rather than at toptal where you keep, idk, 30%? And that 15% is still our money anyway it just gets used for overall co-op stuff, which members get to decide on.
Also I don't know if this kind of business lends itself to the silicon valley mythos of the huge work week for a few years followed by functional retirement. Instead it seems we'll all need to keep working for the foreseeable future, but at our own reasonable pace, fully remote, our own hours, at very high compensation but not "fuck you money" compensation. Well except for our people in Ethiopia and Taiwan, for the local market rates, their compensation is getting way up into that territory.
That said, I don't know about our ability to survive a full on capitalist attack in the form of lawfare or getting priced out or closed out of deals. Priced out in a labor market would be difficult since the only way to beat our labor margins is to hire directly, but we could be lawfared to death pretty easily considering our ARR might be 1 mil this year if we're lucky.
Co-op for consulting actually seems like it could work.
I made a comment about exactly this in the thread. This is where a lot of co-op ideas go, but they run into friction when they get to the part about sharing the money around. Consulting is one place where developers can see a direct relationship between their hours worked, hours billed, dollars coming into the business, and dollars going into their paycheck. There are some ideas like putting shared money into a group fund to cover vacations and similar expenses, but generally a consulting group is money-in money-out. Nobody really wants to join a co-op and see the hours they bill go to pay someone who works fewer hours, so the money relationship gets even more tightly coupled than at a traditional salaried company.
Down to explore this with me?
I often wonder if this is self fulfilling. I'm not saying you're selfish, I mean, has capitalism trained people that all people are inherently selfish, and then, within this system where selfishness is rewarded, incentivized further selfishness and continued to sell this myth?
How much maintenance does capitalism take? If human nature is inherently selfish, and capitalism is a force of nature, a ground truth, the answer should basically be no maintenance, right? Is that reality though? It seems to me it takes a lot of maintenance, the myths of capitalism. Look at the incredible amount of resources the USA dedicated to fighting Communism, both explicitly (crossing swords with the Soviet Union) and in the background (overthrowing socialist leaders in south America, meddling in southeast Asia).
Is the key difference for me that led to me making a co-op (rather than a traditional geographic arbitrage agency) that I don't buy into the capitalist notion that humans are inherently selfish? Maybe I just happened to have the experiences that indicated to me that this isn't true, that humans are inherently mostly selfless and social, which led to me researching this and learning that history supports this notion of humans as social-first organisms.
When I tell people about my business, a lot of questions I get confuse me: "You don't require timesheets tracking granular work? How do you know people are actually accurately recording the hours and not 'stealing time?'" the answers are always basically, "because I trust my co-op members," and "I really don't care if people are 'stealing' from me." Capitalism teaches us to always "get ours," but as soon as you let go of that, if people trust me as a genuine actor, they seem to abandon these unnatural principles and work with me honestly, as humans naturally want to.
For your VC example, I mean, nobody will invest in us. Maybe that's the double edged sword - you stop playing within the rules of the game, people won't throw the ball your way anymore. There's no massive value to extract here. That probably limits our ability to rapidly develop some products to generate revenue outside of selling engineering hours. Maybe that's ok though, the business might grow more slowly but sustainably? And maybe that cements our reputation as "no really, actually a co-op that genuinely doesn't put profit first?" I don't know. We'll find out.
But for you, what do you think would happen if you started putting yourself forward as a non-participant, non-self-interested? The prisoner's dilemma equivalent of saying "I will always cooperate no matter what you choose," and then following through on that? Is there a sort of aversion to that knowing that someone might exploit this aspect of you at some point, where you might end up in a situation where your personal profit wasn't maximized?
At the smaller scale, I’ve lived in coliving housing most of my adult life. Mostly positive, but problems that make people retreat away from cooperation. Once a week potluck but otherwise people cook their own food. Chronic mess/clutter/dishes/laundry headaches.
Should note that both the West & East included a lot of economic cooperation among countries within those competing Cold War economic models, even if there was coercion involved (and not just from the Soviets).
If your company is publicly traded, you can buy its stock.
The message could be “we’ll all do more by working less.” Instead it’s, “some people will lose their jobs while everyone else works the same amount or more”
Any pay rises have been more of a side effect in the past of complexity and therefore needing more skilled labor to say operate a bulldozer or backhoe than it does for any individual with a shovel. Productivity may boost the economic ceiling of 'how much they can pay before they literally start losing money' but more assembly lines didn't mean big pay raises. A backhoe didn't mean that ditch diggers suddenly got paid 50 to 100 times what they were previously from other's expenditures because they could dig that much more. And that is before the back-and-forth of induced demand and supply vs demand causing the price of the labor to drop with more efficiency.
AI's whole thing is to provide for easier operation and trying to deskill the operations. (Key word: trying, currently knowing what the hell you are doing is essential for filtering good outputs from bad).
It remains to be seen if LLMs will be used in this way, but the messaging so far (including your post, the one I'm replying to) suggests that the elites' inclination is exactly that: more profit, more control, more power now for elites, temporary (possibly years, maybe as long a generation or three) but real suffering for many of the rest, and a steady state at the end of the transition where they are still in charge, much richer, and maybe also everyone else is better off (if they can't capture the gains completely for themselves).
And if everyone else is, the productivity floor is raised but every other competitor has done the same so we don't have 10x the economic output, maybe only a marginal increase. If that is true, then there will be no days off because we have just reset the status quo.
edit: spelling
But they’re also paying hefty AI bills so there’s less money for salaries.
The AI companies just swoop in and take some of the money that was going to the working man
There have been movements toward this in the US, but particularly in the tech sector, far too many people are still stuffed full of decades of anti-union propaganda (like the idea that the union is a "third party" rather than being the workers themselves, or that it would bring down their salary because they're such a special awesome 10x developer and 10x negotiator).
The executive class has taken roughly all the productivity increases since 1980 and slid them straight into their bulging pockets, at our expense. The only way we get any of that back, or prevent them from taking this new increase from us too, is to stand together against them.
1. Reduce working hours 2. Grow the economy
Guess which option was last picked in 1868 and never again despite massive gains in productivity?
One of the greatest tricks of the modern era in the US has been to convince everyone that making the slice of pie bigger for the richest people is necessary to grow the economy.
There have been numerous experiments with four-day work weeks or six-hour work days that have almost uniformly shown increases in overall productivity.
Not just productivity per hour at work. Overall productivity.
The resistance to this is clearly not based in financial concerns, but rather in control, and classism.
Where is that additional money going to come from? I think you’re missing some important factors in your analysis.
Businesses, especially tech ones, are not altruistic. The idea that tech companies are out to make anyone's life better is a joke and a sentiment that should have died decades ago. The evidence is of predatory business practices and leveraging the worst aspects of our brain chemistry to keep us hooked on apps that make us less happy, keep us stupid and less informed, and buying more.
Even more confusing are the people who are welcoming AI with open arms as just another skill to learn, _surely_ they'll be the ones who come out on top, right? It has all the stink of the countless Americans believing they too will become billionaires and everyone else are just suckers as they are all one healthcare problem away from bankruptcy.
We don't learn.
I think here it's useful to separate "AI" as sold and marketed today from "AI" as a CS discipline, a field of study, and a category of tools and techniques.
The field of Artificial Intelligence has always been, at least for the majority of people in it, about improving things for real people.
The LLMs that have garnered huge valuations and an outsized share of everyone's attention in recent years started as part of that field, and grew out of its research and technological advances.
But once companies started seeing how they could monetise it, that's when it started being about wealth consolidation and control.
You don't know that. And this same line could be said about any technology that results in accruing of capital, but actually does end up making life better for the average human.
What if AI at AlphaFold finds a cure for Alzheimer's disease? What if it finds a way to actually perfect fusion?
You can't tell me we don't live better lives than people 100 years ago right now, and that is because of technology.
What a cold perspective. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
"Concede everything" is way too vague to argue against, but I'd be more than happy if whoever is behind the tech to cure a horrible disease like Alzheimer's is made filthy rich for it.
That's a fallacy. You're assuming we all agree that this is going to happen. I don't agree. And I think AI will drive a huge amount of innovation that is going to make almost everyones lives better.
And when/if it doesn't, unionize. I know the HN crowd historically hasn't looked favorably on Unions, but times are changing. It's long past time for unions in tech. We've fared well individually for a long time, but that time is coming to an end.
Nothing bad would happen, of course.
If AI is really about to automate away a lot of labor, I have yet to hear even a hint of a plan to deal with the fallout of that which doesn’t involve consigning much of humanity to the dustbin of history.
You get to keep your job. You agreed to accept X pay for 40 hours, do it or we'll find someone else who will.
Person 1: "We need class solidarity against the billionaires."
Person 2: "No, it's the immigrants' fault."
It's been awhile since 9/11 and we've got pretty short memories, so we'll probably cycle back to Muslims soon.
We're really failing to meet the moment before us by merely repeating the propaganda of elders that glaze over on live TV trying to act authoritative and useful to humanity.
Exploitation of youth is no less ageist than telling gramps look in the mirror.
The author might be being playful, but an increasing amount of folks at or past their breaking points definitely aren’t.
More flour more water. More water more flour.
Mainly because in software development (at least for what I do), productivity does not translate into significant company gains. I work for an energy company, nothing is super revolutionary, and a new feature or capability takes a long time to translate into measurable revenue, if at all.
The energy crisis had a much bigger (positive) impact on the numbers than AI or anything I personally did. (although I have to add, they also did a major re-architecture of their back-end after the '22 energy crisis and did some smart buy-in, so as the other energy companies' websites struggled, ours churned along just fine and we got a lot of new customers/contracts)
But it's worth noting how leisure hours have been allocated after the invention of the 5 hour work week: we've reduced working hours at the end of life (longer retirements), start of life (longer education), and some amount of people simply do not work.
There hasn't been a reduction in hours during peak earning potential because many jobs are competitive, because firms are in competition with each other.
Maybe some companies will start doing 4 day work weeks because they find that productivity doesn't actually increase from 4 to 5 days and then start outcompeting other companies for talent. But unless 5 days is actually not more productive than 4 days, we're going to have the most competitive organizations continue to be 5 days a week.
This would have to happen again. But there is none of that worker unity so it's unlikely to happen. The productivity gains will go solely to the bussiness owners.
I think that's the key difference with AI, though. It's not like I'm losing my job, but at least I have a robot at home that cleans the house and does my laundry. People are having their livelihoods threatened while their utility bills go up because of datacenters, and the only substantive impact in their personal lives is that now they have to deal with chatbots and low effort automated customer service agents even more.
I'm OK with accepting a job that pays 10x less if the efficiencies from AI mean we're all living in abundance and life is >10x cheaper. But it's unclear if/when we'll move beyond marginal business impact, aside from in software development, I suppose.
Life was better then than it is now. But the 1990s were arguably the high point.
Mostly what I can think of is access to medical treatments developed in the last few decades. Comforts like A/C are more widespread now (but they were less necessary when we were under 400 ppm CO2).
I would never choose to raise a family in that period.
It's kinda funny that this is considered small, though. 110-120 sqm is perfectly normal for a family of 4 where I live, and in many cases they do it with 1 or 0 cars. But I live somewhere that isn't horribly designed (the Netherlands)
When I briefly lived in Paris, we had a laughably small refrigerator. But it was about a 5 minute walk to a neighborhood grocery store, so we effectively used their fridge instead. Which also provided human contact in a way driving to and shopping at a big box store really cannot.
Some of this is just the difference between living in a city vs the suburbs. But not all: even in the US cities, my impression is that you'll have a large fridge and shop at the big stores, even if you take public transit to get there, because the small stores can't compete on staple items.
We're in a path-dependent hell where losing a parking space is felt as a mortal insult, while losing the need for a parking space feels pie-in-the-sky, an unobtainable fantasy. There's an entire synergistic system of dependence on scale and cars and "self-sufficiency" (that masks the infrastructure dependency that it requires).
</rant>
Far, far more people and the same amount of land.
> Average families aren't buying prepared food and they have a washing machine from the 90s they bought on craigslist.
Well, that's just not true. The average person is absolutely terrible with their money. Not only are they buying prepared food, they're paying someone to drive it to their house.
The average person is doing this? Do you have sources/stats or are you just going on vibes, or are you looking at people in your (likely non-average) peer group?
Edit: A source I found cites 130 million US delivery app users in 2026, which is a little over 1/3 of Americans. Given that some non-users will call in orders (pizza, Chinese, etc) then it’s plausible that over 50% of people do order delivery from time to time. That said, it’s hard to find good statistics on how much the median person spends on delivery given the likely inflated numbers promoted by delivery app companies. One source said almost 50% preferred ordering delivery through third party apps like DoorDash; if so then how are only 1/3 of Americans actually users of those apps?
Given the numbers on consumer financial stress it’s likely that there is less food delivery happening right now.
The trouble with averages is they don't always say much that is accurate about most people .. it all rests on distributions.
Agree that no washing machines outright sucks.
I’m sure you will say something about housing costing more, which it does. But also many things cost less, such as food and clothing.
You just can't live an upper-middle class on a single income unless you have a good job, but you couldn't back then either.
Standards of living are going up regardless if we like it or not, and costs as well.
“You can see the computer age everywhere but in the productivity statistics.” — Robert Solow
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity_paradox
* https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-solow-productivity-pa...
Connectivity/the Internet gave a bit of a boost during the 1990s, but the numbers pearked around 2004:
* https://www.milkenreview.org/articles/the-rise-and-fall-of-a...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_American_...
* https://www.csls.ca/ipm/31/gordon.pdf
But isn't the premise of "progress" a continuing improvement of things? At what point does it change to "stagnation"?
Nobody is operating businesses now without electronic cash registers, POS systems, accounting systems, etc. It's way more productive to use computers and the Internet than to try to accomplish the same stuff without them.
Well, yes. But once you make the switch and get your productivity boost, that's it: a one-time shot. How do you improve things after that?
Do you though? You might be hallucinating those robots. And no, a Roomba doesn't mop the floor, wipe the countertops or clean the toilets.
> I'm OK with accepting a job that pays 10x less if the efficiencies from AI mean we're all living in abundance and life is >10x cheaper. But it's unclear if/when we'll move beyond marginal business impact, aside from in software development, I suppose.
Will it though? Your biggest cost is lodging, either rent or own, and both have consistently increased over the past millenia.
My phrasing could have been better. The "not" applies to the rest of the sentence, not just the first clause. I'm saying it might be OK to lose my job for "progress" if I were personally getting big benefits from AI.
> Will it though? Your biggest cost is lodging, either rent or own, and both have consistently increased over the past millenia.
Lodging is typically <30% of income and housing costs are driven more by policy than market forces. That said, I see no reason why housing costs couldn't also decrease with the right applications of AI, at least in the eyes of its biggest cheerleaders.
Well, you won't be living in abundance. All productivity gains will go to the oligarchs. You will have slightly less than you had before. Instead of cleaning the floor yourself you'll work the extra hour for the oligarchs doing whatever the robots cant.
That's the path America is on at present.
What brand of edibles do you have there 'bud? I'd like to fly into that realm of alternate reality for a bit.
Also when have any efficiencies gained by employers benefited workers? Being honest here because the only time workers have truly gained anything was due to solidarity between workers in the forms of strikes + workplace sabotage.
I’m pretty sure that doesn’t cost more than college today :).
Our standards have just risen massively.
If a human element is required to get value from AI, but any human will do, then devs should get minimum wage. If different humans have a different multiplier when you apply them to AI, they should be compensated accordingly. So if the 1x dev can get 5x out of AI, and the 2x dev can get 2x out of AI, you can fire the 2x2 dev, double the salary of the 1x5 dev, and be more productive for less money[1]. Or you can keep both devs, but pay the 1x5 dev slightly better than the 2x2 dev.
This is all assuming you have some valid way of measuring 1x, 2x, 1x5, and 2x2.
[1] Double salary doesn't have to include double insurance, vacation, etc. But there is also the cost of the AI, so...
Edit: markup
How much money do you think the average developer would be making if we all were using punchcards instead of typing? Inputting machine code instead of using a compiler?
Every time we increase our productivity, we can build bigger and better things for the same amount of effort. This makes us more valuable than before. Our output grows and the world’s appetite for software grows with it.
This has been true for the entire history of the software industry and it’s the reason why developers are very well paid. You may not see it at the individual level, but we are reaping the rewards of increased productivity at the macro level.
Normalizing this "10x" language (well before AI) is a factor in this problem.
It's been so loosely and casually thrown about in this industry. 10x engineer... 10x mindset... 10x growth... 10x this... 10x that...
All paraded around by people who fancied themselves to be their own version of 10x whatever.
Well, keep parroting this long enough, and it's just a matter of time before people not only believe it to be commonplace, but they start to expect and demand it.
So now we have AI as the next thing foisted upon us to force everyone to be 10x or die trying.
Should've just settled for being 3.14x engineers like reasonable people.
I do agree though, give me AI tooling, and I will build you cities, but pay me to match it.
I've lost my job in February... Still trying to find a new job... any job...
You'd only get days off if it was only you who got a 10x increase. But it's everybody. So it's status quo: technology advances, and you have to keep up if you want to stay in the industry.
I don’t believe this is true. Or that more hours worked reliably translates to serious competitive advantage, in general.
But your point stands, because many (or most) employers think it does, and employees are usually incentivized to support that notion.
Remember the banner hanging over Initech offices with their internal motto: "Is this good for the COMPANY?"
Ultimately, that is the question that matters.
And I am grateful for not working on a farm, it’s hard work!
_Nothing_ I do that benefits my employer directly benefits me. AI or not. That was the whole idea of the relationship: I show up, perform some type of labor and am shielded from the bullshit of doing business (to some tolerable extend). The employer in turn forks over hard cash. The exact, same F amount every month and on time, no discussions about it.
If your actions directly or indirectly caused a loss to the business do you give up free days or pay? I don’t think you should. This works both ways.
However, that’s on the level of the individual. If you’re saying we should unionize, then, hell yes.
I have to ask myself why we think us white collar knowledge workers are so special? Even if I do dream of a time where automation leads all of us to a 3-4 day work week.
That doesn't increase shareholder value, so it would be a violation of the c-suite's fiduciary responsibility. Sorry, the extra capital will instead be used on stock buybacks.
Given how start-up (and thus equity) heavy this board is, that should also directly multiply total comp, even though it was meant as a vapid snipe and isn't actually vaguely valid outside of a handful of very large companies.
This is not a tech problem.
This is a you problem.
*Yes salary is way way way way lower. BUT where in the USA could I take a 10min bus (normal people take the bus here not bums) or walk 30-40min to work feeling totally safe even at night? Nevermind I spent 0 on my education in terms of tuition. And live in a city centre, walking to a grocery store with a 60k studio condo? With high speed 5g and fibre. And I hear in the US you have to worry about water or power cuts? Not here lmao.
I mean that simply you make society what you make it.
Over and out, o7, waiting for [flagged]
Days off might be a challenging ask as the AI needs feedback more often than that. Working sporadically throughout the day, able to do what you please between the AI asking questions, is realistic. We're already there, frankly.
Of course, until just recently, Big Tech workers were so proud to be on top of the world that they didn't think unions made sense for them.
Were you among them? Has that changed?
So many claims about how it would lead to far better lives for everyone, but the working conditions and general affordability have basically gone down for 40 years. Imagine bringing back the white collar work in the 80s, with a private office with a door, and people whose jobs were to help coordinate and schedule things even if you weren't an exec, instead of you just having a phone to answer all hours of the day.
Then why have we not all been fired already? Sounds like an instant win.
(Has there actually been a lot of terminations in the US tech industry, or is that an odd biasing mechanism causing me to see such things as bigger than they are?)
Yes, lower classes have access to many more conveniences then they might have had in earlier decades, but they are working far more hours, and their expected lifespan has started decreasing.
Just because things may have been worse for specific individuals does *not* mean that current problems shouldn't be addressed.
Suggesting that things are better now than they were in 1986 for the overwhelming majority of people is not, in any way whatsoever, suggesting that "problems shouldn't be addressed". Come on. Y'all have got to start actually reading things before smashing that reply button.
In relative terms, they seem much worse, Americans standing isn’t what it was. In absolute terms, I don’t know. What’s the measure?
It's the highest, at the moment, that it's been since the 1800s. The nadir for the US was in the late 40s early 50s when we had a 92% top marginal tax rate and extremely high social cohesion despite massive WW2 debts. Needless to say the late 40s and early 50s was not exactly utopia, but substantially more stable.
From the data I’ve seen the bottom decile Americans consume significantly more per capita compared to even 2006.
e.g. plane travel was completely absent amongst the bottom decile in 2006, like so close to zero mileage per capita per annum it was a rounding error.
To your example it seems worth noting that the quality of the air travel experience appears to decline over time as well.
Real physical consumption is by far the hardest metric to game or play tricks with.
Yes technically, some probably are trading a bit of their future prospects for a nicer flight schedule, less red-eyes, etc… But I don’t see how that is relevant at all?
Home ownership, high-quality food, working hours etc. seem far more relevant.
People will, intentionally, work longer hours to afford more frequent plane travel. And to upgrade classes, perks, lounge access, etc…
I’m pretty sure there are literally millions of people like that.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-...
I hate to imagine what this graph looks like today, given the massive amount of inflation that's happened in the last 6 years.
What it's telling you is that a company would rather have 4 people working 5 days a week than 5 people working 4 days a week. The reason for that is, productivity drops a lot when it's spread out over multiple people. The reason behind that is communication overhead - the more context an individual carries in their heads, the less likely their role will exist on an hourly basis in the industry.
So, if anyone wants AI to give us another day off, we need to think about how it can reduce the cost of "context switching" a whole person on and off a task, without simultaneously formalizing our roles so much that it gives us all five. ;-)
This ignores a lot of historical fighting (sometimes literally!) to get it down to 5 in the first place.
If everyone sufficiently "flips out" about it being 5 then the problem of "reduce the context switching problem" is something the owner can try to figure out.
Cause otherwise, you could find a perfect solution to that problem, and still not have leverage to make ownership actually change anything vs just raise expectations that much higher.
(Meanwhile, some companies are trying to import 996 and push it past 5 for white-collar work anyway, so any sort of non-political, non-disruptive action seems doomed to fail since the status quo is moving the wrong direction.)
How so? Without technology we wouldn't have a "work week" in the first place and work would be much more directly tied to survival of the community and generally less negotiable in the first place. The "flipping out" came about precisely because technology changed what work was and what the conditions around it were while people noticed that those new expectations and conditions didn't actually seem necessary for their survival (or even much to their personal direct benefit vs the benefit of business owners).
Any technology that lets more be done with less time is an opportunity for a population to make an attempt to claim some of those gains for themselves.
Are you saying you can't think of examples from the past of the introduction of technology changing labor dynamics or organization? Say, mechanical agriculture?
The changes are hardly going to always be good - there's no determinism of "new technology means society will get 'better'". But they've often been periods of change, and such periods are when it's easier to influence the direction if you happen to care about the direction of the change.
Why make that assumption? The company has a lot of per-employee fixed costs, which means that it's much more expensive to have 5 employees than 4 employees under the assumption that total productivity is exactly equal in both cases. (And the further assumption that you pay more productive workers more than you pay less productive workers.)
If you want flexibility on the work week, get rid of the concept of "full-time employee" status and make everyone contractors.
Within software development, most contractors aren't freelancing.
Remember to thank your unions for the weekend.
We think of productivity as linear to the number of employees, but it’s more of Log(N) for knowledge work because of the communication overhead. If your AI spend and employee productivity improvement ends up being proportional to headcount thats a linear gain that used to be Log(N).
The other thing is that if leadership is better—they have stronger vision and coordinate the silos (of people or teams) themselves—the communication overhead is less. The more each level needs to communicate, sync, and align with each other, the more it reflects the top not doing it. This is so thoroughly normalized today that it's hard to see otherwise. As you move down the hierarchy, the theory embedded in the chosen org structure that most tech companies have, is that less communicating should be necessary. This is what middle managers (and product managers) are supposed to be for—coordinating and communicating to take that off the plate of their subordinates. The lack of leadership above is why the managers below get hired. Those managers then do the same and eventually ICs need to coordinate amongst themselves.
And we shouldn't. Workers should only get the wages they can command in the marketplace and not a penny more, and the smaller the better.
> I know everybody is afraid of getting fired and replaced with AI or whatever right now. But we should be seriously asking in our next all hands meetings if 10x’ing our productivity can get us some days off. Or when our paycheck is going to be multiplied accordingly.
Morally, all benefits of any technology or productivity gain must flow up to the owners, who deserve it all.
But this should be comforting to all of you. I'm sure everyone here owns at least a few thousand dollars in shares. You'll get some dividends and/or capital gains!
He has this great quote about when computers came out:
"We were told 'computers will save you so much time on work tasks that you won't even know what to do with your free time'. I spent the next 30 years working the same number of hours. "
From about one hundred years ago:
> Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes.
[…]
> For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us!
* John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren" (1930)
* http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf
An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive):
* https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure
I don’t know how such people can live with themselves. But apparently, if you’re immune to the second factor, it is possible, nowadays, to work 15h or less, without any wealth, and lead a good life.
The only thing threatening this status quo is corporations and rich people pulling their wealth into other states; and related, being net importers. I don’t understand why the EU is allowing this to happen. They should grow some teeth finally.
Another example is privatisation in the UK: scrap all investment, load the company with debt, leave the consumer and govt to sort out the mess.
So the rich do it too, just on a much grander scale.
-- James Jeffrey Roche (1847 - 1908)
This is possible even without welfare.
Some friends of mine choose to do this: live in a shared flat, no car, no kids, it's easily doable. They live a good live and are happy.
(Let me add that I'm forty)
Decades ago there was what I have read was an extremely effective Government department called the ’Commonwealth Employment Services’ but that was disbanded and contracts handed to private firms for excuses like “efficiency” that (surprise) didn’t end up panning out.
Jobseeker is a maximum of $26k per year, but for most people it's going to be around $21k [1]. What else are you using supplement that because that feels like it would be close to the poverty line.
1: https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-jobseeker-paym...
Medieval folks and hunter-gatherers had plenty of time off. It wasn't until the industrial revolution that we started extending our workweek.
Here's a nice summary of how the workweek looked like, from the AskHistorians subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1rf0lb/comme...
I'd love to work 3 days a week now and be paid a livable amount, rather than grind 5 days a week, getting paid more than I need so I can retire fast. But tech companies don't want you for 3 days a week, its 5 or nothing for most of them.
And from experience it seems that 80% people need to try damn hard to actually keep it at 80% and not get sucked into doing more to "keep up".
As you said, it can be a double edged sword to be the 80% worker in the otherwise 100% team.
Only if you count the hours worked for the local lord and forget about all other mandatory work like:
- growing your own food
- cooking/prepping said food (44 hours per week)
- maintenance
- spinning, weaving and sewing clothes
https://acoup.blog/2025/09/05/collections-life-work-death-an...
https://acoup.blog/2025/10/10/collections-life-work-death-an...
In one instance you keep the value you are creating, in the other it goes to your employer.
Given the choice between the two I would much prefer to work for myself, as a matter of dignity.
I'm pretty sure most of white collar HN crowd isn't being ground into dust. It'd be cool to work less though!
Weekends, sick days, vacation days, being paid in legal tender and not company scrip, maternity leave, safety regulations, disabled affordance, banning child labor, civil rights and womens' rights (while they lasted) and the minimum wage. All due to socialist activism and a non-zero amount of violence.
Child went away mostly on its own (as did labor by the disabled) because industrialization made all that non-competitive compared to a normal adult operating some machine. Then, once child labor was relegated to a few niches of limited overall economic importance the government showed up and banned it to win a few brownie points from some jerks.
Child labor isn't a success of some socialists 100yr ago. It's a success of some propagandists 100yr ago.
I suspect productivity will massively increase, the complexity and cognitive load of our work will similarly multiply, and yet we'll still being doing the now-more-complex work in some capacity for a similar number of hours.
"Too cheap to meter"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter
They used to charge you by the minute but now it's easier to just charge you a flat charge per month.
In a communist society where the people own the means of production collectively the measure of wealth would not be money but disposable free time.
It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it.
The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, and in the case of well paid knowledge workers those don't even tend to apply. If you ever read HR material referring to your role as "exempt" now you know what you're exempt from.
A four-day-a-week worker here.
I don't know what you exactly mean, but my personal experience is exactly the opposite. I worked for a startup as a founding engineer, just 4d/w (the CTO was crazily open-minded), and I was never so productive. Doesn't matter that the others were working 5 days, pushing more; it was my responsibility to keep up, and it worked pretty well.
Same now, working for a company with the same arrangement.
And no one is or was "losing."
I really think management still doesn't get it.
“Our AI is so awesome and boosts productivity so much that no one has to work another 5 day week, ever again.”
~90% of Iceland is on a 35-36 hours work week, seems to work fine.
Remote work was also skeptically thought of up until a global pandemic forced it, and while there has been some retreat, 20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still. Just need a catalyst to challenge norms and rigid mental models.
https://autonomy.work/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ICELAND_4DW...
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/25/business/iceland-shorter-work...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/21/icelan...
That's a pretty abysmal number considering the number who do want remote work and its productivity improvements and its overall lower waste. I'm surprised it's so low.
And what's more, software engineers are exempt from these rules because of their pay grades. If you're a SWE making a salary the odds are your employer could require you work on Saturdays without running afowl of labor laws.
This is all powered by norms.
If you are a SWE, you don't get paid overtime for working that incident on the weekend or going over 40 hours in a week. The only reason you work five days a week is tradition.
Give the employees enough work such that they have to work on weekends... and... done.
France is a great place to be an employee.
Made up self-pressure is among the worst things smart folks can do in their lives.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40691306/
Like...
You can actually work 4 x 8 if you want to. Or 5x5... No gun to your head
Yeah, agreed, you'll have a hard time finding a job with full benis and vacation yada yada, but like,.... Every CEO loves to negotiate
So stop being a bitch
If 4x8 is important to you:
Negotiate
***************
Reply to madrox:
"Demands" is a loaded term. In negotiations you enter with "must haves" and "like to haves"...
Through the course of negotiations you learn new information and reveal your own information....
At the end, whether you take the job or not: you end up with what you deserve. Not what you want.
By my assessment, a lot of people are learning that "deserve" is not a character trait, it's market driven.
Because to that CEO you're talking about, you have to convince them your demands are better than the next candidate who doesn't mind working more hours.
If that is the case, wouldn't the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends?
If that is the case, then the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends.
Also, 996 is apparently a thing
But ultimately the unsaid thing was: you either work 6/7 days a week, or you get marginalized or fired. And it's not like we weren't putting in the hours on the weekdays; most of us were working 12-hour days, or more. (And wow, we got to drop down to 8-10 on the weekends! So generous!)
Dumb. I'll never do something like that again. Not worth it, and certainly not for someone else's company.
Unless you're imagining congress do something. I want to shoot fireballs from my fingers, but unfortunately we don't live in a world of magic.
Meanwhile I did some googling and I can buy a wrist-mounted flamethrower for $175, which is close enough to my fingers to make no difference.
Acting like we are helpless and the future is determined is straight up loser talk while also not being historically accurate in the slightest.
You should go read about people starting wildcat strikes while working in literal company towns. There is tremendous power when we organize together, a power so great the elites have spent almost a 100 years trying to destroy the fruits of their success.
But we weren't talking about unions. We were talking about congress. I think you will find that tech workers are not the only job segment, and far from the most sympathetic due to their wages. Lobbying for an extra day off will not get you far in the face of many more pressing issues, and the party most likely to stand up for workers is more interested in stopping data centers at the moment. Unless you're talking about a time horizon past which I don't think I'll be around to notice.
That is an oxymoron. I think you probably meant coercion.
This reminds me of the Luddite movement in England. Industrial machines were disrupting the textile industry. The Luddites were not anti technology they were against technology allowing employers to suppress wages and working conditions and for increasing the quality of life and more humane working conditions for the extra productivity.
As we know their movement was not successful giving rise to the bleak images of industrial factory life in England. I think all that will happen is workers will expect to be more productive than before but their skills will be less compensated because “the machine” did most of the work.
https://theconversation.com/im-a-luddite-you-should-be-one-t...
I’m seeing this talking point circulated a lot recently but it’s not really the whole story. Luddites weren’t on a selfless crusade to steal from the rich and give to the poor. They wanted to fight off competition for their specific jobs. They didn’t want anyone having access to cheaper fabrics and clothes and other things because that was their golden goose. They wanted to be in control and force you to go through the inefficient methods to get those things because it benefited themselves.
A closer modern day analog would be something like the dock workers striking to keep automation out of ports. They have a sweet gig and they don’t want machines doing anything to jeopardize their stranglehold on ports, even if it would benefit literally everyone else in the entire country if we could modernize our ports like the rest of the world.
>But the Luddites themselves “were totally fine with machines,” says Kevin Binfield, editor of the 2004 collection Writings of the Luddites. They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices.
>“They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods,” says Binfield, “and they wanted these machines to be run by workers who had gone through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were their only concerns.”[1]
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-the-luddites-rea...
I've been trying to figure out how to bring the idea up to my boss of going back to it... at least the 4x10.
This is why 3x12 is not workable for average families. If you have kids and want to see them, 3x12 only works if you start really really early, then get to bed early when the kids do too.
I enjoyed 4x10 when I did it, but there were some real problems with some employees trying to adapt. Anecdotally we were seeing a lot of people who would barely work until the 8 hour mark and then just zone out or socialize while they waited the clock out at the end of the day.
Which is all too bad for those of us who work well with longer days.
You could try a data engineer’s life which is full of meetings, ad-hoc tasks and other BS —- everything that screams that this is not a real engineer job.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
If you are excited about the technology, sure. But if you are excited about the increase in productivity, unless you are a manager, I don't really understand it. Like, why? You are not working one hour less than before. If anything, it's more likely you'll get laid off and have trouble finding your next job.
> a natural desire for people to want to make things
... and all you can think of is "gains"?
If your job was 80-90% shoveling and one day you were offered use of an excavator, wouldn’t you find that exciting even while realizing the shoveling part of your career is probably dead?
The amount of code you produce in months of just typing must be enormous, no?
To me it seems no matter the plan there's many unplanned things that I need to handle, and that's where the time is spent. I never had a day in my career where I knew exactly what had to be done and just spent it typing...
Dictating what to exist and what not to to the machine is a power fantasy that's not going to stick around for long, because we'll inevitably reach the point where no human is needed in the loop (or at least not as often as they needed today).
Most people finally feel how they would've felt like if they actually put deliberate practice for hours to work on something. That's why you see comments going "wow, I rewrote this in Rust, and I don't even know Rust". You get to feel like someone who outputs Rust.
But, work IS exciting now - not sure for how long - because AI allows me to work almost at the speed of thought.
Nothing more, nothing less. It's FUN to be able to _just_ think.
I think it's mostly young graduates that have not been ground down by the wheel of labour just yet, and old/ex engineers that are able to build something after years of being out of practice.
Hard for me to be excited about being asked to do more for the same pay, to be measured on idiotic metrics, to compete with overconfident but inept people, when I'm reaching my 40s. I am at the peak of my engineering skills and the bottom of my patience.
I'm not saying that's _why_ they're excited. But it's a great time to be a builder, and a terrible time to be a worker ant.
You can and should choose your employers. Saying you have no alternatives is disingenious. It's possible (and often worth it) to trade a big salary for meaning.
My employer significantly underpays us compared to the market, we could be (and many had been) earning multiple times more elsewhere, and yet we're happy to work there: we get reimbursed by meaningful work in a relaxed atmosphere.
In theory yes, but lots and lots of people will tell you how hard it is to switch jobs in real life, especially with personal circumstances.
A very simple example -- depending on your location, there can be very few employers you can choose from. Relocatiob is a major life decision.
Just talk to a few people, and that should be obvious.
Regarding the point in GP -- you can bet that most Meta employees don't believe in the company's vision, and they are just there for the (very good) paycheck. They are likely employable but choose not to.
Source: direct contacts
- Jim Morrison
1. Competitive market dynamics. If you only work four days a week, other employees and companies who are willing to work five days a week will do so and get ahead of you, and you are more likely to get fired or to go out of business. This force pushes us all to work longer (and harder) so we have more money to enjoy in our leisure time.
2. A society's willingness to sacrifice days of leisure for days of work. There are only seven days in a week. The tradeoff between work and leisure - production and consumption - is ultimately what determines how hard we all work. This force pushes us all to work less so we have more time to spend our money.
Economists think on the margin. It's easy to demonstrate these two principles to yourself by thinking through worked examples from different starting points.
Whether the equilibrium lands at 2 days of work to 5 days of leisure, or 5 days of work to 2 days of leisure, depends on our collective preferences, which vary between countries and cultures but have tended to be relatively durable over time.
No technology so far has shifted this balance much - not the steam engine, the industrial revolution, the invention of the personal computer, the internet - and there's no reason to believe "AI" will be any different.
The logical conclusion of this is that - assuming we're all 10x more productive - we'll still be working 5 days and enjoying 2 days a week, but we'll consume 10x more, or everything we consume will be 10x higher quality. Hardly a bad thing.
Who is "we all"? To me, it sounds like the relative few who happen to have those jobs that have the 10x productivity boost but also receive the monetary upside (via ownership).
The rest of the hard-to-automate jobs will likely see their wages crater as the workers whose jobs got automated flood those labor markets - i.e. office worker turned skilled physical laborer.
This will further enrich the previous small group relative to the masses, as they will pay lower prices and receive higher quality goods and services due to competition between everyone else. Prices will fall not by miraculous AI robots but by squeezing labor.
This is the scenario - neofeudalism - that may await us absent strong mechanisms to replace the broad productivity redistribution the social technology known as "jobs" provided. Hardly a good thing.
The point is: "a society's willingness" is doing a _huge_ amount of work in that framing. This willingness is precisely what is up for debate when we discuss work days.
The whole of humanity is one big system of self-feedbacks. Equilibria are only reached with respect to constraints (otherwise there is only one equilibrium, which is heat death!). The more you zoom out, the more "givens" come up for their own analysis.
Though this was a 100-year prediction so we still got three and half to go!
Yeah, if you switch to working as an independent contractor, you can work any amount of time you want. If you run your own business, you can work crazy hours or none at all. The world is truly your oyster
I'm not being facetious either. That's exactly what I did, and I got what I asked for
We can all talk about supply and demand here, whether companies should be forced to do X or Y, and how Keynes got his 15 hour work week prediction so wrong, ad nauseam. But if you truly want something beyond the talk, like a more flexible work schedule, there's real ways to get it right now
My girlfriend had a similar schedule when she worked at a hospital.
Good shoes like Brooks or Hoka and a good sleep schedule and it's doable. I only work 15 or 16 days a month. I work every other weekend, but the weekends I have off are 3 days.
http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf
Couples (in prime reproducing age) where both members WFH at least 1 day a week have 0.32 more live births per woman per lifetime than couples where neither does.
Time not spent working could be time working on spending.
https://rickwebb.medium.com/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab...
I argue - there's nothing we can do to stop it; humanity, I mean. We will either achieve Star Trek or get wiped out as a species.
As a Kardashev Type 3, we will have achieved full automation. I'll leave the door open for Elysium problems, but hopefully Mr. Damon will save us then too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_Tense_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Sp...
A couple of years ago, in fact. We're running late.
WWIII lasted 25 years and it took another 100 years to rebuild after that. WWIII in universe is also scheduled for 2026 I believe.
There are people out there who would rather other people starve than they have one iota less prestige, power, influence or luxury. And, unfortunately, they are the people who wield most of the power in our society.
We have to solve that before we can solve the economics, which is the easy part.
we definitely choose consumption over free time for the most part.
people generally choose nicer home, starbucks, vacay, neflix over work hours or retirement.
so this is a cultural issue
Post-scarcity is no longer technological problem, it's a political one. But it's still very much a problem, so no, we are not anywhere near post-scarcity.
I also don't understand the point you're making about people wanting to spend $15 on netflix or $12 on a coffee. Would everybody cutting netflix and lattes allow us to live in that utopia more quickly?
It's far more a cultural problem than political.
We starting hitting post-scarcity at the start of the 19th century, towards the end of the industrial revolution [1]
We were growing enough food, housing is actually not that expensive, we were 'starting to not need that much more'.
This is when we started marketing consumption to the population - it was the only way to grow the economy.
We have far, far more than we need for basic satiety.
It's not quite so simple though - many innovations that we 'truly want', like medicines and health tech - come out of the economy as a whole and would not be possible were that the only hugely important sector.
We work 5 days on 2 days off because that's the very strongly entrenched social contract, it's the 'labour equilibrium'.
No amount of tech or AI will change that - unless we collectively agree to change the rules.
The social contract is slightly different in different countries, and nobody seems to have figured out how to work on 2-3 days, I believe that we mostly prefer the way it is. Maybe 4 day weeks would be more amenable.
But the marginal income from the 4th day ... I think people would prefer to work it rather than not.
[1] https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/a-brief-history-of-consum...
Another problem is housing and living environment. Although it is very much possible to live in a smaller space, nice neighborhoods (quiet, clean, green) are expensive.
But basic necessities are almost free in rich societies, if you have time.
Roles that come with a 40hr work week were already decoupled from performance, if AI made those workers 10x more productive they will rarely see the fruits of their productivity
On an individual level it seems like the correct move is to either move to a role that rewards output or organize and get equity comp as part of everyone's package
I don't think the average person has even close to a 10x output increase due to AI.
And now with AI coming out in hot, and companies only hiring seniors, I found it very hard to move horizontally. It is not like I can't take a pay cut, but people simply won't hire someone who takes some time to learn the rope.
I might as well figure out how to increase my Charisma to 18 and sleep with someone at the top /s
It used to be that 80+% of the population worked in agriculture. In developed countries that number is now around 1-2%. Some of the freed labour was funneled into improving living standards, some of it was funneled into new jobs created by the increasingly complex society (the "intermediate economy").
With AI, the same is true: labour is freed by the productivity gains (which I doubt are 10x sustainably but whatever), more labour is needed for power generation, mineral extraction, maintaining this new extra layer of complexity in the intermediate economy, etc. In the end we might see, say, a net 3% increase in global productivity per year over the next 10 years, which will be funneled into increasing living standards and increasing economic inequalities, but not in reducing working hours.
If you accept living below average standards, you could easily work a single day of the week for the rest of your life. But why would an employer hire 5 people working one day a week, instead of one working 5 days a week? They won't, hence we don't see a reduction in working hours.
The alternative is to work full time but retire earlier, much earlier, than you would otherwise, which in the end is the equivalent of having worked one day a week for your whole life.
I highly recommend reading Lean Logic by David Fleming, it explores several of these concepts in a very interesting way.
Employers have two modes, waste peoples time, or sack them
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=182425
The joke, of course, being that every increase in productivity has ALWAYS gone straight to ownership.
Economists have been predicting a boom in human leisure time since the dawn of economics. It has NEVER happened...
Which of course means that if you want to capture that upside for yourself, you need to be an owner.
The real problem with AI is that it breaks that for programmers. Before AI, you actually could be an owner. Of course big tech companies tried to get you to centralize, to depend on their tools, but you didn't have to. You could always run your own open source tooling on your own hardware, and freelance if you absolutely couldn't accept the loss of upside in being an employee.
But now AI has centralized a key tool, and that changes the game, at least if you think the game requires you to use AI to stay competitive.
AI Startup Founders Tout a Winning Formula–No Booze, No Sleep, No Fun
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45221423
996
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45149049
New trend: extreme hours at AI startups
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45156674
SV AI Startups Are Embracing China's Controversial '996' Work Schedule
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44657480
The logical response should be to elect left-leaning politicians that recognize this; or educate your existing left-leaning politicians; or stand for office yourself with this as your platform.
If there are huge fines on any AI-related layoffs, substantially higher taxes on the top 1%, and an extra wealth tax then maybe we can fund some kind of UBI or stopgap support for the masses that will lose their jobs.
"Most of the things that we worry about under the mode of capitalism that the U.S practices, that is going to put people out of work, that is going to make people’s lives harder, because corporations will see it as a way to increase their profits and reduce their costs."
The problem is, it has always been that way - and not just in the US. The introduction of any kind of new technology or other way of disproportionately improving corporate bottom lines has always led to job losses, the key thing is what governments do in response to it.
The Industrial Revolution for example led to widespread devastation, the shift from agriculture being the dominant employer to industry and service sectors did not (as the ag workers were absorbed by the rapidly growing other sectors), the globalization / offshoring wave of neoliberalism once again led to widespread devastation, and AI will probably again lead to devastation.
And if Sam Altman isn't arrested for his blatant RAM market manipulation... I'm pretty sure there will be either people with pitchforks at the end or he will have ushered in, in retrospective, a new era of "stuff that uber rich people can get away with".
Yes, everyone has a modern smartphone now. Cool, thanks. But last time I checked, can't pay my rent with a smartphone when I'm out of a job.
> Nobody will suggest we ban cars and go back to horse and buggies so cowboys can have jobs.
Maybe not that, but have you looked at sustainable farming movements? In farming, there is a growing movement believing that the way we do farming - basically, ever larger and larger central operations running farms with tens if not hundreds of thousands of animals or acres upon acres of monoculture crops - is no longer sustainable, as the externalities get too serious to be able to ignore:
Biodiversity loss, land erosion (when everything is just the same crop from horizon to horizon and no bushes, wind and rain has an easy time carrying away soil after harvest), an increasing vulnerability to all kinds of pests...
But in order to get smaller, you need people again, because a tractor costing half a million dollars won't ever make the money back on a small farm.
Are you willing to part with your smartphone and computer? I would bet not.
That said, sustainable farming doesn't require very small farms, and it doesn't require more than 1% of the population to work on farms.
Yes, no-till farming has demonstrated excellent results
Also, a reference to population trends might be interesting. Nobody is wrong (I've spent my spring preparing fields) but could be close but actual data would be good. Meanwhile farms have been failing at increased rates.
Highly disagree. If anything we'll see more variety because mass produced food has settled on a very limited set of breeds (both for plants and animals) to keep timing and yield consistent.
I want what you are smoking.
I know most people don’t agree with that but it seems nice to me
I fear being targeted by an AI drone and mass surveillance. Neither of which are driven by capitalism (although being targeted by either of those by some billionaire because I refuse to RTO is related).
U.S. becomes more authoritarian -> you are more afraid of being targeted by an AI drone and mass surveillance -> companies that make those weapons of war for the government (prime contractors) make billions -> they use their money to influence politics and public opinion -> U.S. becomes more authoritarian -> etc.
You must be new here. No, that's not how this work. If you are able to produce the same amount of work by midday Monday we expect you to increase the amount of output in the current system by 14 x. And the owners pocket the financial gain from this productivity delta and you should be happy you even have a job.
This is why it’s prudent for more of us to figure out a way to be our own owners.
In the horrible, distant future known as 2023.
Appetite grows with eating.
It does when you own the tech. If you give the tech away then the people who you gave it to will continue to expect more of the same, naturally.
The reality is that if you were already a 10x coder, you can't be 10x more productive even if the LLMs made you so, because there's only so much work.
And even just using LLMs in my private projects, I feel my daily coding skills slipping. I want to ask Claude to do some dumb API integration instead of doing it myself. But I know if I don't do it myself, I'll be lost at sea and never able to debug it without more Claude.
This is a drunk state of mind post, feel free to ignore it.
There's no guarantee society needs 10x the productivity.
Yesterday I built a bespoke time keeping and billing tool in my browser for my boutique consulting gig. I got exactly what I needed and I paid about $1.
I think this piece of software could power my business for 2-3 years... If my business is very successful maybe I'll invest $2 to develop a GUI.
No SaaS needed. Software demand was actually surpressed by AI.
I don't need 10x more software. I need simple software at 1/100th the cost, on demand. And AI promises to give it to me. The most beautiful part is there's multiple market entrants competing for my bid.
Imagine OpenAI invented ICE engines and the world was dotted with lakes of crude oil, all we needed was refineries. That's the world we're in.
Now that should make you think.
In reality, higher productivity just means companies can do more with the same amount of time/effort, and so nothing will change. Wage-slaving will still be wage-slaving. We won't move the bar toward more leisure time; we'll move the bar toward more work completed in the same amount of time.
Then again, the labor movement gave us the 5-day work week, and the concept of weekends for resting from work. Maybe a new labor movement can give us more days a week off. Labor movements have been declining of late, of course, but perhaps that sort of thing can be reversed.
In today's parlance, this was excellent "work-life balance". If you can, talk to your boss and see whether you can adopt such a work schedule (with slight shifting of the time window as needed).
Then, let's do a 3 day work week and multiply it by 0.6.
Pretty simple math
If it's just time, then why are we doing so much overtime?
You wrote a lot of words, but none of them describe a slippery slope, or explain how a supposed 10x increase in productivity precludes a 20% reduction in hours worked.
This is just ripe for a response "leave California". Which Elon likes to bite on. But it's expensive everywhere and not just that, fundamentally time with your child is important and cannot be fixed by throwing money at it.
I know this isn't about Elon's hypocritical stance on fertility, sorry.
End the "software crisis" that's been with us since the 1960s. This would result in a quality-of-life improvement for every manager, stakeholder, user, etc.
Another idea: Alleviate some side effects of the crisis, such as vital functions being taken care of by "shadow IT" for decades.
Abolish Excel as the front end for business computation.
And it definitely doesn't help when everyone hires "Seniors" only, so it's virtually impossible to switch tracks unless I sleep with the CXOs I guess. I have been nudging towards system programming for the previous 8 years, starting as a data analyst, to BI developer, and to data engineer -- well, I guess data engineer is my last stop for life.
A lot of the paradox in productivity and labor may be attributable to a severe debt that needs to be paid down and now finally can be. Some of the 996 (or 007) working hour system stuff is coming from your peers feeling this new hope. The tone will continue to shift as backlogs get exhausted.
If you are pure software play I think you are on track to get more days off than you bargained for, one way or the other.
But the money was so good we (The royal we) didn't think we needed it, that would just get in the way. Did you see how much FB employees were getting paid in 2015! Insanity! Now, even the skutters have a better union than us.
A plumber, or an electrician has a better union, and hence rights and protection than us.
But if you're building a brand new field you can still build a guild.
Get a tractor, and spend less time farming.
The factory will save time making tractors, so everybody can have one.
Computers will make the factories more efficient.
AI will make the computers more efficient.
We've also ran out of freedom at that point. We used to simply walk away from bullies, but that was no longer possible, with the farm and all.
At some point bullies stopped charging for racket. They stole the land and told us we are now working under them, for them.
We could have abundance, but then people might not have to maximize their efforts to produce wealth for capital holders.
My wife and I work full time so we could outbid other people who wanted our house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Be_Lazy
But that has never stuck enough for masses to fight for it. It’s a shame.
Personally, the way I cracked it is by freelancing for an american company and living in France. I can totally take the day off.
Instead of asking for the day off, some startups should just implement the practice and popularize it
The expectation for him was to work 50-60 hours a week, not including commute, getting ready for work, and corporate social events. Time off was strictly 2 weeks until you hit a certain level and then you'd get 3 weeks. He didn't get sick often but if he was he still went to work.
Dad had it good. I used to jump on landscaping crews during the summer in SoCal and watch 60 year old guys break their backs for 12 hours to get ~$250 a day. I'd do it on the weekends for spending money.
I enjoyed the article but reading through all of the comments in this thread I'm genuinely surprised by the lack of appreciation for how good we have it. There's a "demographic" on HN and I'm pretty confident it aint the guys doing concrete work or running vampire hours at the local 7-11.
Moving around some 1s and 0s in between some coffee and meetings even at the bad companies isn't that rough in the grand scheme of things. I get what the article is trying to say - with all the productivity improvements when do the grunts get a little bit of those gains back?Unfortunately thats not how it works. It's "Red Queen Theory"... when something new changes the game you adapt or die - "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
... but appreciate what you have too
And I personally would like that something better for the people who have it worse, too.
>> If AI is going to 10x our productivity across the board, that means that I should be able to produce the same amount of output by midday on Monday that, in the before times, would have taken all week.
You are thinking of productivity as "code written". And certainly that part of your job will get more productive.
But that is just something you do when you're not in meetings. (or when you're in a meeting, but the camera is off, and you're not really listening). Your real job is to attend meetings. And unfortunately AI can't help with that (yet).
(I'm not even being sarcastic. Most programmers don't realize that they have been hired to have meetings.)
What it can do is free you up from the pesky code-writing part of your job, freeing you up to attend even more meetings. And this does indeed make management happy because (seriously now) their job is having meetings, and you being "unavailable" (because you know, you want to program) was hindering them in the first place.
So no, you can't have Friday off, but now that you mention it, let's set aside that time for "team building" exercises...
Many meetings have 0% content "that applies to you". But that doesn't stop you being "added to meetings".
Don't like your job? Fine leave, there are tens of millions of H1B's who will do your job for less money and they won't complain because they can't easily leave.
In short, people have been having the day off for decades now. It's called part-time work.
Joke's on you peasant. They're already playing golf on Fridays.
Political disengagement is often "too damn tired"
If I was smarter I’d have 200k in my 401k now. Assuming I live cheap in Vietnam and a good yield I’d just live off 10k usd per year
The overall code quality probably drops a bit, but as long as it still works the C level can call it a win.
So yes, take the day off but the models still need you to steer them when you’re back
the concern would be that this new ability will actually increase competition and give us less than we had before
this is not something that can just be blamed on the "CEOs/execs/shareholders" of the world. it is evolutionary competition - unless we can ALL join forces to draw the line somewhere, someone will choose to defect from the agreement to "just work less", because doing so will make them succeed at the expense of others. even if everyone from one country agrees, the other competing country that defects and works 996 with agents will "win" and conquer the lazy country.
I wish I knew what to do to fix it, doesn't seem sustainable but I don't know how to make all of humanity cooperate without doing something even worse
I am definitely out of the loop. I assume it is used pejoratively only by self-labelled idiots?
> We already did draw the line and we can redraw it. We drew the line very strongly at 40 hours, 4 days a week. That is the "official" expected hours for most salaried employees.
because doing so will make them succeed at the expense of others.
> This already happens. People making salary, 40 hours, that work 50, 60, etc. to get ahead of their coworkers in a career sense. Or people taking optional overtime to get ahead financially or people who work hourly working extra hours or people who have 2+ jobs or a side hustle.
even if everyone from one country agrees, the other competing country that defects and works 996 with agents will "win" and conquer the lazy country.
> Didn't realize Japan is imminently going to conquer the US because they work more hours.
Hours alone is not the only thing that matters, but all else being equal it does matter. Someone who works smarter for 20 hours will get ahead of someone who works stupid for 40, but if both people work smart the 40 hours person gets more done
Maybe we could afford for women to not leave their kids with strangers for most of their waking hours? Crazy talk I know.
Any gains in productivity are extracted by the rich. Any losses of productivity shall be covered by the poor. It is a one-way rachet.
What they haven't yet explained is how everyone is supposed to earn money to buy AI produced goods.
3 And they said: 'The God of the Hebrews hath met with us. Let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest He fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.'4 And the king of Egypt said unto them: 'Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, cause the people to break loose from their work? get you unto your burdens.'5 And Pharaoh said: 'Behold, the people of the land are now many, and will ye make them rest from their burdens?'6 And the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying:7 'Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore. Let them go and gather straw for themselves.8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish aught thereof; for they are idle; therefore they cry, saying: Let us go and sacrifice to our God.9 Let heavier work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard lying words.'
10 And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spoke to the people, saying: 'Thus saith Pharaoh: I will not give you straw.11 Go yourselves, get you straw where ye can find it; for nought of your work shall be diminished.'12 So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble for straw.13 And the taskmasters were urgent, saying: 'Fulfil your work, your daily task, as when there was straw.'14 And the officers of the children of Israel, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten, saying: 'Wherefore have ye not fulfilled your appointed task in making brick both yesterday and today as heretofore?'
>This inadvertently led to an increase in the use of slaves. Whitney had hoped his invention would do the opposite by reducing the amount of labor needed to process cotton, but he never invented a machine to harvest cotton. That job still had to be done by hand. Cotton harvesting machines did not show up until the 1930s. So as cotton farmers expanded their plantations, they bought more slaves to pick the cotton.
In turn, your capacity to impose a day off is a question of either your personal power or of class struggle.
Of course when you arrive at the question of the class struggle, the discourse becomes funny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day_movement
You are never going to get relief by asking politely.
Tractors didn't making farming more lucrative, it just meant less farmers. Automated loom technology didn't make textile workers wealthier, it made capitalists richer, and then still ultimately shipped the work to poorer countries. Powered drills and tools didn't make miners or construction workers wealthier or work less. Forklifts didn't make dock workers wealthier or work less. Women entering the workforce and nearly doubling the available labor didn't make us work any less.
I don't see AI doing anything to help the working class in any way, just funneling more money into capitalists hands while the productivity demands increase.
Even in programming, where AI is being shown to be the most useful, did any of you have your work demands decrease or wages go up? No, at best they just fired junior engineers and told them to go pound sand.
Choices are made by people who have power and imposed upon people who don't.
The people with power under current systems don't care about the people who do the work. They care about getting rich. So if there's an efficiency gain to be had, all of that new efficiency is going to be put towards increasing output or reallocating work. None of it - under current power structures - will ever go towards allowing workers to work less, because workers aren't the ones deciding where it will go.
“People on twitter will really be like ‘you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart’ and then not firebomb a Walmart”
There is a simple alternative. Vote; and educate your family and friends.
If you don't know what is on the ballot in the midterms, you are part of the problem. If you aren't starting a family conversation about how corporations are squeezing us, you are part of the problem.
Violent revolution has merit when peaceful means break down. The rise of the guillotine jokes are the first time that people are losing faith in the peaceful option. We should hope that our leaders don't make most of use disillusioned with the idea of a peaceful transfer of power.
It'll probably disabuse you of the idea that its a good way to get things done.
Democracies that arise by nonviolent revolution, do so in part due to the threat of what comes next if the nonviolent revolution is crushed. Because if you make sure placards and petitions don't work, it eventually won't be placards and petitions anymore.
'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable', and all that.
When I've gone to local government meetings, I've generally been one of only a few without gray hair. The vast majority of working-age people seemingly can't be bothered to learn the basics about who's running in a non-presidential election, let alone go argue for the boring but extremely impactful things that would actually help people out.
People need to put down the phones and put in some actual effort on fixing things before even jokingly advocating for something that would almost certainly be a mass casualty event. It's shameful.
Resistance doesn't work very well against highly militarized autocratic regimes.
Robespierre first entered the chat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
Then Napoleon followed.
Make of it what you will.
[EDIT: for the downvoters - the folks who got guillotined in France were definitely bad, but the Terror was very real and very awful. It tends to be a trend with the noble overthrowers that after the initial wins they then get excited to go lop the heads off anyone else that might have ever bothered them. Be careful what you wish for.]
Believe me, I know what's on the ballot for the midterm in the state but it's not going to stop me from making dark snarky jokes.
Don't get me wrong. I do vote, and I believe that voting and activism can work, and even still does for a variety of things. But as for fighting against forces of corruption and tyranny, I believe activism is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. Any grassroots efforts are in a horribly asymmetric battle against well-funded adversaries that will come back every year everywhere without fail to get their opening. And any hope we had of limiting corporate interests in politics has been decimated in the U.S. basically since Citizen's United — not that I really believe there wouldn't have been some other workaround had that not happened.
So yes, I believe grassroots activism largely doesn't work. The fact that the battle is so asymmetrical makes it even more asymmetrical by making people apathetic about and fatigued over activism, making it even less effective.
But people often turn their heads when there's violence.
Nobody wants violence, just like nobody wants to hit rock bottom. I believe truly that political violence is a very dark place that will be no fun for anyone involved that I personally do not want to be a part of in any way. But, it just is the case that things will get worse before they get ~~much worse~~ better.
I see it as a question of if and not when until structural changes occur that durably improve upon the asymmetry of political activism. And in that case, it's not a matter of whether or not, it's a matter of getting it the hell over with.
I don't know how the fuck these stupid Flock "safety" cameras got here, but I have a pretty good guess how they'll disappear.
Cops love them, and look longingly at the UK panopticon and how easy it is to solve crimes.
Instead we’re being spied on but seemingly police can’t solve any of the crime affecting most people’s day to day lives.
You are also wrong. Contracts, ordinances, and everything related to governance get rolled back or changed all the time. Especially at the local level.
If you have lost the initial battle you can do the same thing as them: you keep attacking their presence and you only need to win once to undo it.
What is voting for then?
Normal activists don't stand a chance against well-funded adversaries.
If you don't believe in this system then start setting things on fire[0] I guess. Otherwise shut up, people are actually trying to fight it.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Kimberly-Clark_distributi...
Feel free to spread naivity, but do not tell me to shut up, that is an endeavor less useful than any activism.
Gee golly, I have no clue how the pole ended up being cut and the solar and cameras ended up smashed.
Must'a been an "accident".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." - Jefferson
I have less sympathy for decision-makers who are stressed than the people who’ll be fired first, and have less mobility. Or safety net.
I care less about the motivation rather than the action.
And what exactly does it mean to "compete"?
You could have a straight up communist for a boss that completely shares all profits, but if the business doesn't extract labor value and expand as aggressively as other businesses do, it'll eventually get eaten or lawfared to death, or priced out, or closed out of deals (e.g. small player in chips related business).
So the only way to prevent industry wide redundancy at everywhere except the 1% largest companies that survive (which will also be laying off people but not completely closing down), is through organized labor. Or, I suppose, completely restructuring the economic system, which I'm very down to chat about as well, but the labor organizing feels more achievable for now.
When have you ever saved the company money and been given a bonus that was even 1/10th of that money?
When the AI bubble pops, large companies will be extremely relieved to stop throwing money into the wind playing this game. For most companies, the AI arms race is a huge hassle. They are fine with losing money in the short term and even in the long term as long as they can find a stable path forward.
This is the exact same trajectory as when the internet came out and every insurance company and toothpick manufacturer spent gobs of money to have a brochure website built because everyone else had one. This will play out differently, but recognize most companies are acting entirely from a place of fear right now.
It’s simply being looted now by the idiots this moron worshiped.
I quote it here because the best way to get a day off is not to continue being weak, but to find strength, just as miners and railroad workers found strength in the 1870s.
Maybe he meant this somewhat disparagingly, but ultimately not enough. For a greek.
But let's be clear - we all probably own a decent part of our companies (collectively). Productivity gains mean winning the race to market, profits, glory. And that means ownership is valuable.
At the _very least_, you can push your company stock higher and buy it with your 10% IRA contributions or through a similar investment program and make 16x your investment over your 40 year career.
It's easy to look tactically at productivity gains being "captured" by high CEO bonuses, and that's legitimate, but we have so sufficiently seized the means of wealth production if we have stock options and market access that I'm not sure it's really valid to say we get, paraphrasing, "nothing if not a day off work".
Over the past 150 years, the work week dropped from 70+ to 35h in France.
Granted that’s a long time horizon but still.
In a capitalist society, choices are made according to supply and demand.
In a world where there's a positive supply shock (in this case, there's a lot more programming available for purchase today than there was a year ago), supply goes up. We therefore expect the price for the good to decrease.
This has nothing to do with power or whether people care about xyz. It's a consequence of the economic system we live under.
You can desire to live under a different economic system! That's logically coherent. But if you want the laws of supply and demand not to apply to you, that's what you're asking for.
Honestly I'm getting tired of this narrative. People take the benefits of capitalism for granted (indeed most of us on this forum do very well for ourselves relative to the average person in our country and around the world), but we blame all of its downsides on "bad people".
And 2 days off was not a system dictated by God, which we are obligated to keep in perpetuity (in fact, most religions dictate 1 day off, not 2).
So, we could, as a society, just choose to make a 32 hour workweek “full time”, and mandate overtime pay after that.
There’s no reason, even under capitalism that we must allow all of the productivity gains to accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
In fact, I think if we choose to do that as a society, it will end horrifically.
I would question the premise that all or even most of the productivity gains of any past technological improvement have accrued to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth.
200 years ago 90% of Americans lived on farms. In the early 1900s, it was 40%. Today that number is 2%.
The economic surplus from that increase in productivity accrued to everyone in society, not just the wealthy. (The evidence for this is that we are all living at a higher standard of living today than we were in the early 1800s or 1900s.)
But certainly the positive supply shock was not great news for farmers, many of whom lost their jobs. In the case of AI, I'm asking us -- programmers -- not to make the mistake of saying "this is not a benefit for me, therefore it's not a benefit for society".
I'm not sure about that - farming kind of sucks. I think what the transition away from farming generally looked like was people who had some kind of small family farm, where multiple generations had worked hard all their lives to make a living growing crops, having kids who left the farm to work in some other industry, and making more money that way and having better working conditions (at the price of living a more urban lifestyle foreign to their family back on the farm). When their parents' generation got old and was ready to pass the family farm along, the urban worker generation decided they'd rather not quit their jobs and go back to the family farm; so (perhaps with some feeling of guilt), they sold the land to a large farming conglomerate; and then the next generations who grew up in an urban area doing white-collar jobs simply forgot that their ancestors had ever been farmers.
Something like this happened in my own family - about one hundred years ago, my great-grandfather owned a farm on what was then the outskirts of the bay area. He sold the land when he retired, no one else in my family ever did agricultural work, I only know the story, and the land that farm was once on is now incredibly valuable bay area real estate that is not being used for any agricultural purpose. I have no desire to work in agriculture.
The historical automation story seems to be that technology replaces workers, and those workers typically end up taking lower-paying jobs:
"replacing workers with technology “explains 50 to 70%” of the increase in inequality from 1980 to about 2016."
https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1067563/automati...
They point out a disappointing aspect of some technologies (self-checkout), which seems to be that not only are workers displaced, but customers also experience degraded service (probably without a new benefit such as a discount for using self-checkout.)
As I said, when farming became more efficient, it wasn't great to be a farmer.
But when I say (and I assume everyone else here also says) "I don't want to go back to a world where 90% of people had to be farmers" (because farming was so inefficient), that's another way of saying, the world that farming efficiencies gave us is richer / more preferable overall than the previous world. In other words, the economic surplus did not go exclusively or primarily to the richest.
I expect the same will be true for AI. I think our society should do more to help the displaced. But I do not want my grandchildren to live in a world where, 100 years from now, 90% of people are still doing jobs that could be done by a computer, but we choose for the computer not to do them. Just like I wouldn't want to have to be a farmer.
What you seem to be saying is that consolidation of the farming industry into fewer producers with higher productivity was good for food buyers and society at large, which might be true but doesn't contradict GP's point that when their company earns $100 more due to improved employee productivity, approximately $0 of that will be paid to the employees, so they find little reason to celebrate.
The link I posted makes somewhat different yet important points: first, the arc of automation seems to tend toward increased inequality (and a hollowing-out of the middle class); second, automation may provide a markedly worse (but cheaper) replacement for the thing it replaces. Even in the case of farming, many fruits and vegetables are less nutritious than they were 100 years ago - perhaps effects of selective breeding (such as for size, shelf-life/durability, resistance to pests/pesticides/herbicides/etc.), soil depletion, environmental changes, etc.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48330421
That was in large part due of strong leftist movements and states that forced the capitalists to share the increasing wealth. WW2 and the resulting labor shortage and other special circumstances contributed as well. Currently no such movements and circumstances exist. Globalization and the resulting free movent of capital has put capitalists in a better position to direct the extra wealth for themselves than ever before. A global movement is required to get a meaningful share of the increased surplus to the workers now, and that is very hard to do. The market will not do it on its own, as the demand for human labor eventually decreases due to automation.
That would be relevant if I stood for that premise, but I don't and I wasn't putting it forward.
I was responding to your earlier claim:
> But if you want the laws of supply and demand not to apply to you, that's what you're asking for.
I was disagreeing that this was what was being asked in the present moment. What was being asked in the present moment ("can we have a day off") is very similar to what was being demanded in the past.
In the past, workers demanded to share in the wealth and productivity that was being created through technological gains. And so, I agree with you, workers in the modern era have benefited massively from past technological gains. But that wasn't an accident. Those gains were earned through the blood and sweat of workers demanding to be included in those gains.
And so, to ensure that these present gains continue to be distributed more equally, we need to continue applying the pressure that was applied in the past.
But that's not a rejection of the the laws of supply and demand, it's at a social layer before the economics of supply and demand apply. It's at the political and social layer of how much work we expect an individual worker to put forward into society, which is a major factor in determining the amount of supply of work available.
It's a political decision—totally separate from a rejection of capitalism—of how many hours a "full week of work" is. It is not a rejection of capitalism to set the "full work week" to 48 hours, or to 40 hours, or to 32 hours.
Sure, a poor man with two dollars is richer than a poor man with one dollar.
And yet the man handing out the dollars had 100$ in surplus when he was handing out 1s and now that he's handing out 2's he's got 1,000,000,000.
Look at the wealth disparity. Even if quality of life has increased, it's not wrong for the people delivering that increased quality of life (workers) to also demand a requisite slice of the pie.
In fact, I see no reason why the pie should be shared with wealthy non workers at all. Were they necessary for the increased quality of life?
On top of that, it's a global economy. Expand beyond the USA and include in your analysis how life has changed in imperialized nations that now function as cheap labor sources for our factories that pollute the local environment while exploiting workers for absurdly low wages and bad working conditions.
Agreed, let's do that! Here is the economic history of the developing world over the past 70 years.
https://ourworldindata.org/history-of-poverty-has-just-begun
Pick any metric you care about: number of people living on less than $1/day, literacy, maternal mortality, access to birth control. It has dramatically improved in the developing world over the past 70 years or so.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X2...
Putting the poverty line at 1$ a day, or saying people crossed from 2$/day to $3/day is "poverty decreasing," lets people get these self-serving numbers. Poverty declined, relative to what threshold? Do these people have secure housing, medical care, education, political power, in line with their contributions to the global market they've been shoved into?
People being moved from centuries old homes distributed across agrarian geographies into slums, that's improvement?
https://data.unhabitat.org/pages/housing-slums-and-informal-...
People living side by side to polluting factories that poison their water, that's improvement?
These people are foisted into a global supply chain, their economies changed into e.g. unsustainable cash crop or similar fragile-to-price-shock products, and themselves thrust into market dependence without any labor security since outside entities show up, exploit while it's profitable, then disappear without leaving any meaningful industrialization to the overall nation. Not to mention there's still a lot of people being straight up enslaved.
Sure, but the argument being made is that "productivity gains accrue to the benefit of solely those at the top of an enormous pile of wealth."
That is simply not true. Across the entire world, from rich countries to poor countries, economic development, driven in large part by technological development, has resulted in a dramatic improvement to everyone's quality of life.
https://ourworldindata.org/history-of-poverty-has-just-begun
The way some people talk about it, it's as though they wish they were middle class in the 1920s instead of in the 2020s. People are so. much. richer. today. In ways that really matter, like education, retirement, ability to travel the world. MEDICINE.
I get that it still sucks today. The only point I'm making is that it's false that the historical economic surplus has accrued "solely" (or even, mostly) to the wealthiest. It's not true.
However the story is much more dynamic and interesting than that, with income inequality shrinking until the late 70s and early 80s, then expanding drastically until now, half a century later. That period of lower income inequality is mostly why things got better for the working class (but science and technology have marched on regardless).
It is, though, if we talk scale. The rich went from having big houses in the 1920s to being sent into space, or building private libertarian colonies, or buying elections, or potentially increasing their lifespan a few decades, in the 2020s. The working class went from working 40hrs a week until age 64 when they retire in a house they own, to working 60hrs a week until they die, but hey, that death might be at an older age!
The improvement disparity between the two makes the improvement for the working class insignificant enough to be dismissible. I don't buy into the idea that the working class should be grateful that the scraps now have better seasoning.
I mean really, just look at the wealth gap. Imagine how much better the lives of everyone could be if that wealth was distributed better! Fuck a 20 hr workweek, what about 5?
Now imagine if only 10% of companies were allowed to use AI. Those companies would easily be willing to give 2-3 days off per week to their workers. Makes sense since those companies would easily outcompete the others and so they would have enough economic surplus to provide lavish benefits to their workers.
However, because 100% of companies and 100% of workers have access to AI, the competitive pressure on the deployment of capital means that no days off can be given.
New perks are only given to you if you, your company or your country has some sustainable systemic advantage over other employees, companies or countries.
In the absence of those sustainable systemic advantage, any perk given would put you, your company or your country at a competitive disadvantage against some other employee, company or country who are willing to work without such perk.
The only way to sustain such a perk in those situations is with anti-competitive practices: Labor Unions, protectionism, corruption, etc.
Yeah, like when the steam engine was invented?
Can we have a day off? Yes and no, or yes, but at your expense.
The problem is system design. If a company earned money for its contributors/workers, then each gain would be shared across the company, from the board to its employees. But a company earns money for its shareholders, and you, as an employee, are in the expense column.
Therefore, a day off is either a mandatory legal right meant to help you rest so you can be more productive, or it is just additional unproductive time that does not create more value or maximize profit.
Therefore, this is where the argument for a 4-day working week collapses. To get a 4-day working week would mean yes, but with less "expense", or a lower salary.
For the same reason, taxing the rich would not help "the people" much, as it goes to the wrong pocket.
Is there are fix, yes.
You want to create jobs? Find ways to get people legitimately out of the workforce. By that I mean out of the workforce but still spending money and improving their skills for when they come back in.
If capital is doing the work, why on earth are they getting paid?
Speaking of AI, it’s been what, 3 years since it became mainstream? Did the employees wellbeing’s become better? Are the codes better? Do we have a breakthrough innovations that changed fundamentally in how we use/deal with xyz? All I hear is more work, more anxiety, more cost for some tokens, so I am not entirely sure about the “productivity increase” claim.
And then this phenomenon is being called 10x productivity and celebrated.
This is why we cannot have nice things.
/me is off to rewatch They Live
ALL technological progress under capitalism goes through this same conflict. It's why workers are sometimes pressed into reactionary positions like opposing self-checkout lanes. Capitalists decide to deploy the technology in a way that is worse for the workers. Technological progress could be liberatory. Technology could be used to make workers' lives better, like working less, if workers were in charge of the organizations in which they worked.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
basically, we can blame greedy corporate overlords, and that's cathartic, and somewhat correct, but we can (and have) ended up in a hell of our own making even with every individual wanting to do better. the boss that wants to let workers have the day off can't afford to, because the competition makes workers do 8x5. the competition lays off workers to pay for more tokens, because their competitors are. it's a bad game equilibrium.
labor laws are the reason we have the five day work week. we needed overtime to dissuade employers from defecting from the policy. we need coordination to keep AI from turning out like children working the bobbins in old-timey textile factories.
* - not while any of us reading this are under 65.
I've mentioned a few times, that I actually appreciate an aspect of Claude's 5 hr API window... I generally watch, stop, re-prompt and review what comes out. I'm not running a bunch of separate prompts and instances all at once. I'm using AI to plan and do a lot of work... I am getting a lot more output and a lot more value for that time than I could without it. It takes a toll... and the few times I've hit the window on API usage actually aligns with that toll in when I need a break.
I also assume I'm not going to be productive all day... I'll review mail, checkout articles on HN, comment, etc. I'm generally actively in a productive flow about 5 hours a day... with AI, I can be a lot more productive. That said, my current job is pretty locked down and I'm unable to leverage AI for most things... I've been able to use my own computer to write a few libraries/utils that I can then leverage in-job... but that's about it.
Mental work can be more tiresome than physical work, depending on the individual jobs. You aren't "on" all the time. This isn't a statement against or for a 4 day work week, only countering part of the narrative.
Right now the job market is a mess... developer wages are severely suppressed and almost everything is "contract" based and lacking basic benefits like good medical insurance, vacation time, etc. It pretty much sucks. AI is not a panacea, and it's not a replacement for skilled developers. Not only that, but a junior developer + AI can literally be several steps backward compared to a skilled developer without AI or with.
I'm seeing a lot of cool things happen on GitHub projects I follow, a lot of it allowed by leveraging AI... most of the best stuff not left to AI alone. It's a tool. On the flip side, I do think a lot of major employers need to return to actual employees with actual, meaningful benefits and even start implementing profit sharing... There are a lot of people pushing for outright Communism, and they're winning elections in some places. Just from a CYA point of view, it's time to treat the workforce a little better. I'd rather not have communism become prominent in the US... it won't be pretty.
Marx called it exploitation for a reason.
What inspires me to work harder is getting to work on things that I enjoy.
That would be true if you and only you are 10x more productive than anyone else. Since everyone is now 10x more productive it just means you have to work just as much as before since you're competition can outwork you. I don't get why people don't understand this.
Why? I don't need 10x more stuff. I'd far rather spend 10x less time working. If we're talking about an actual productivity increase, let's just produce the same amount of stuff in 10x less time.
It's a free market - if you can find someone willing to hire you to work 0.5 days a week, and are happy receiving the same income you do today, you can do so.
But your living standards won't improve, while everyone else's will, and by 10x.
And the people you are competing with to buy housing, a car, consumer goods, healthcare, food, and everything else - people who want to work 5 days a week - will have 10x more money than you. Resources like housing, which are supply constrained, will seem to go up dramatically in price relative to your income, and you'll be living in a slum.
Does that still sound like a good idea?
That sounds like a problem with that system. If we're 10x more productive why can't we make 10x as much nice housing?
Because the supply of land is relatively inelastic (and to some extent building materials and construction labor). There isn't suddenly 10x more land on the planet because we all start using AI. Maybe we can make more land or build taller buildings, but it gets progressively more difficult and expensive. And because of NIMBY of course.
And let's say that work is correlated with quality. Company A wants to spend 10x less time working, while Company B works 10x more. Company B therefore has a better product than Company A, so eventually Company A goes away. The consumer still consumed the same amount, but they switched to the better product.
Either the product was 10x better, which I don't think I need, or it wasn't really a 10x increase in productivity.
If everyone had said this 100 years ago we wouldn't have the Polio vaccine, air conditioning etc.
There are lots of problems in the world and there are still a ton of incentives to fix those problems. Yes there is also greed, scams, and exploitation - but that's never going to go away
If we got a 4-hour work week that might be a worthwhile trade.
In the world where someone can take your cake by working 25% more hours, it's always going to happen.
Almost this entire thread is people discussing a labour issue with no reference to the fundamental antagonism between labour and capital.